RELIGIOUS PLURALISM: CANADA AT RISK?

Canada prides itself on religious pluralism.  It is the belief that all religions are not only of equal value, but even equal validity.   Under a pluralistic worldview, no one religion should   have claim a to exclusivity.  The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees freedom of religion, and I wholeheartedly support and would defend that right.  It does not however, somehow guarantee that all religions are of equal value.  For example; although one is free to practice Satanism under the Charter, for many of us this would be regarded as not only an inferior religious choice, but a dangerous one.  We need pagan’s invoking the power of Satan upon our  landscape about as much as we need nuclear weapons on the hands of crazed world leaders.  It is not as unrelated an analogy as it sounds.

Religious pluralism in the early days of our nation was not much of a problem, as most immigrants came from European countries that were either Catholic or Protestant in faith.  Though the two groups have not always got along, at their core they shared common values… things like the value of marriage, the sacredness of life and fundamental human rights for ALL.  Today most immigrants come from non-European nations, places with cultures and religions that are sometimes inconsistent with our aforementioned core values.

For the record I welcome new Canadians and think we are richer for it.  My bigger concern is that our version of modern pluralism is an invitation for colonization not immigration.  There is a big difference.  Immigrants come to be part of a new culture, to learn the ways of their adopted home, to integrate and assimilate into society— which does not require relinquishing their heritage or forgetting their roots.  I am sure we all feel Canada is a better place for Ukrainian perogies, English soccer or Scottish highland dancing.  Colonists, by contrast, bring their culture with them and live under their own laws. Their loyalties lie elsewhere.

The Organization of Islamic Cooperation which represents 56 Muslim countries and the Palestinian Authority has outlined a very clear strategy for the colonization of the West  They are encouraging widespread immigration into to Western countries and resistence to assimilation.  The explicit agenda is to over time gain control of the institutions of the West,  eventually transforming them into Islamic states.  “This strategy should  be targeted at providing the necessary conditions for individuals from the Muslim communities to occupy the key positions within host societies, in the economic, cultural, political or information fields.”  Don’t believe it?  Go read the document for yourself.

http://www.isesco.org.ma/english/publications/strategy/Chap3.php

Many European countries are already getting concerned.  Because of the extraordinary Muslim birthrate there are fears that some countries will have a Muslim majority by 2050.  Politicians have become alarmed that they could end up as Islamic states.  Radical Muslim groups have made it clear that that is their goal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia4Belgium

At any rate the political battles are already well under way.  France has been the first country to ban Muslim head coverings in public.  Belgium has a similar law, which on hold at the moment.  A Swiss referendum called for a ban against building Muslim minarets   I do not want to be an alarmist but I think it is a fair question to ask, what will Europe look like in the future… and can Canada and the US be far behind?

Presently we have already started wresting with the surface questions. Veiled Muslim women can vote without showing their real identity and for years they were able to slide through airport security without showing their faces.  Now at Canadian airports, covered Muslim women must lift their veils, although they may opt to show their face only to a female security screener.  As of last December their faces must be clearly seen when reciting the oath of citizenship.  There was a significant backlash against this ruling claiming it was a limitation to religious freedom.  The fact is, the Quran nowhere requires women to wear a burqa or niqab.  These are cultural customs not religious.  Personally, I believe people can dress however they want, and if it doesn’t effect national security, I am even happy to accommodate some of their special requests.  For example I have never had a problem with the notion of a Sikh man who wears a turban being a member of the RCMP or military.  After all the Sikhs fought alongside the British for decades and the difference of headware was never even an issue.

It is the issues below the surface that concern me.  Pluralism in Canada suggests that we should embrace their traditions on an equal footing to our own Judeo-Christian roots.  That is where I need to get off the bus.  We are beginning to see where pluralism might lead us.  Most would regard the ‘honour killing’ of four women by Mohammad Shafia, his wife Tooba Yahya and their son Hamed as an isolated indecent.  This is what many of us don’t get, Shafia would not have seen what he did as wrong.  In fact, just the opposite.  This educated and successful man would have regarded what he did as virtuous.  In his mind his daughters and his second wife (yes, he was a polygamous as well) had dishonoured his ‘good name’… so he killed them.  As Westerners we are hard pressed to understand this.   How could a parent’s honour be more valuable than a human life?

Under Sharia law a woman’s life does not have near the value of a man’s.  A daughter’s chastity is regarded to be the property of her family, not her own.  So any shame brought to the family should be dealt with with extreme prejudice.  In many Islamic states it is not even a crime.  In Syria, Morocco, Brazil, Colombia, and other countries in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and Latin America, men are permitted to kill female relatives in honour killings, as long as it was a crime of passion and not pre-meditated.  In Syria, even if convicted of a pre-meditated honour killing (which almost never happens) the sentence is only 2 years in prison.  Even though the UN claims there is 5000 honour killings a year worldwide, in reality there are that many every year in Pakistan alone.  In India 5000 Hindu women are murdered every year by their husbands simply because their dowry was not big enough.  It is estimated that 1000 women lose their lives every year in the US through honour killing.

Canadian Islamic groups have condemned the Shafia killing, as they would and should.  By sentencing them to life in prison our justice system has sent a clear message that this kind of behaviour will not be tolerated in the slightest.  Which is a good start.  What does concern me is the importation of this kind of twisted, backward and treacherous worldview in the first place.  Canada may need to rethink our concept of pluralism.  Don’t misunderstand what I am saying, I still support leaving our doors open to immigrants from around the globe.  However new Canadians need to be expected to adopt our historic Judeo Christian values of the sacredness of all human life.  Immigrants that are convicted of human rights types of crimes should be deported after they serve their sentences.  We cannot allow insidious religious or cultural mindsets to creep into our nation under the guise of religious pluralism.  A lot more thought and action needs to go into how we handle our immigration and citizenship.

In the meantime we cannot live in fear of Muslim, Hindu or other immigrants from non-Christian nations.  Even if there is a clandestine mission of Islamic world domination, God has His own mission.  I am convinced that even if we struggle to take the gospel to the nations, God is bringing the nations to us.  We will never reach anyone with the gospel unless we get to know them and learn to love them.  This is not just an New Testament notion either, as even the Old Testament commanded,  The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.  Lev 19:34

 

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47 Responses to RELIGIOUS PLURALISM: CANADA AT RISK?

  1. Elizabeth says:

    How can I help? My in home support worker is muslim I like her very much as she is very respectful. I have told her I am Christian and about God and the Bible but i never mention Jesus as I am scared to as I fear her reaction will be terrible and Jesus wants me todo it respectfully but I don’t know how to without sounding like I am saved and not you I am better than you!

    • Jusuf says:

      allowed me to make suggestion;
      Just let’s her be herself, so that she’s not trying (as a minority) to act as you’d expect. And be yourself with personal goal of faith, that is deepening your understanding and relationship with Christ the Lord (there’re several christians being influenced by christian book without understanding, for example because other religion using the name of god & allah, then they change using the name YHW).
      Statistically, no muslim comes to Christ just by having friend or boss sharing his/her your faith.

      • Mark Hughes says:

        Jusuf is right. Don’t try too hard. Show her love, live like a REAL Christian and pray God will show Himself to her. Most Muslims today come to Christ after dream or angelic visitation. The stats on this are incredible.

    • Maria says:

      Hi,
      I am christian too. I had muslim friend and she was very religious. Once we spoke about our religions openly and she told me that muslim do believe in Jesus but only as a profet. I don’t think you have to be affraind to tell her about Jesus as far as you do it without thretening her religion.

  2. Thank you, Pastor Mark for your blog on Religious Pluralism. This word needs to be spread. We’ve had speakers here at my church, the Good News Chapel, saying the same thing. One speaker was a past Muslim believer who is now a Christian. I’m praying for God protect all of you who are speaking out to bring awareness of what is happening right here in Canada.

  3. Jusuf says:

    Never expected this kind of writing from a pastor. Awesome pastor Mark.
    There’re 5 things that concerned me and I’ve never tired to speak up;

    1. faithfull christians in Indonesia, Malaysia and middle east countries use the name of Allah (Bapa, Anak, Roh) as God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, unfortunately some churches in Canada have the same voice as radical muslim ie; Allah is belongs to muslim only.

    2. religious discussion among religions can never be effective, other than to motivate the looser into nasty strategy to defeat the other in other form.
    Similarly inter-religious teaching, that is a pastor speaking at the mosque or an imam speaking at the church will end up into a nasty future strategy.

    3. even in the largest muslim country as in Indonesia and only 10% christian, it’s not easy to differentiate between moderate and radical. However, there’s always a link between sound-moderate (who introduce religious law into a small community, then expand into a larger community, city then provincial, then the whole country) and radical as a naughty boy who always try to bend and break the existing law.

    4. All new immigrants know that Canada give free money to those who have childrens under 18 years old. Imagine one man has 4 legal wives and 9 children. Finding a job for new immigrants are not as easy as the brochures said.
    Some people can have dual citizenship, not us. We lost our native citizenship when we took an oath at Canada citizenship ceremony, and I’ve never regretted because I gave an example for my children about our family value, one GOD, one country and one spouse.

    5. Faith in Jesus Christ the Lord with family life as well as professional career life should NOT be separated. They’re all interconnected. I truly believe that what had happened when western nations born. It’s an identity. Loosing the identity is the same like garbage, or salt without a taste of salt.

  4. Lisa says:

    I agree with you 100% Pastor Mark. Thank you for writing so honestly. We need to hear more of this.

  5. Jordan Baribeau says:

    Let me make a few points that are not necessarily clear with this article

    First, the vast majority of immigrants follow capital (Note: General trend, exceptions exist). In this sense, it is pure mathematics. Capital requires surplus labor, thus if Country A does not produce enough children, immigration is required.

    Second, Canada has been a pluralistic society (in terms of culture, religion, social relations, etc.) for centuries.

    Third, the Canadian state, particularly since the days of the Victoria Charter, has maintained a vested interested in promoting multiculturalism (which includes religious plurality), for reasons of security, social relations etc. Further, ironically enough state-mandated multiculturalism actually assists in facilitating ‘assimilation’. Just wait 2 or 3 generations, relations will ‘cool’.

    Fourth, I placed ‘assimilation’ and ‘cool’ in quotes for one major reason. What it means to be ‘X’ in terms of citizenship holds no inherent value or humanistic or spiritual meaning. We are all people, it is impossible to define ‘X’. Citizenship is merely a construct by the state, for the state. Three notes. First, the state has a vested economic interest in citizenship in order to promote social stability (people get angry when they’re hungry). Second, the state uses citizenship to dilute the civic power of its own citizens. For example, every individual who receives citizenship weakens the individual say, vote and action of another citizen. Third, we all know controls, maintains and distorts the actions of the state, those with economic power. Citizenship is integral to those individuals. It should come to no surprise how much of a joke citizenship has become given the power of corporations and their title as ‘citizenry’. Nothing will change.

    Fifth, ask Canadians what it means to be Canadian, I doubt you will receive a consistent answer.

    Sixth, as argued by Charles Taylor, Will Kymlicka, among many others, state-mandated multiculturalism (includes religious pluralism) is required in a post-Capitalist society. Our contemporary liberal democratic framework would cease to exist without it. Charles Taylor eludes to why in this series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUQ10PbPvUY

    Seventh, while Canadian society values many tenets of Judeo Christian values, the age of secularism is not only diluting but destroying such values. The Church is being relegated to the private sphere of life and all that is left in the public sphere is ‘reason’ and rationalism. Hence French, Belgian and Norwegian emphasis on diluting religious symbols in the public sphere.

    Eighth, it is hard to imagine that the Canadian state will promote ‘Judeo Christian’ values. Thus, what is your solution? It appears to me that globalization will continue to eat away at national and sub-national cultures, it is only a matter of time until Capitalism completely dismantles cultural relations (it has already diluted cultural and nationalistic identifications across many countries, see Henry Heller).

    Lastly, while I agree that pluralism in general needs to be examined closely, I would argue that it, along with multiculturalism, undermines itself. Strangely enough, state-mandated pluralism does not defend particularly identities, in fact it dilutes identities. Second, pluralism places far too much emphasis on groups. Third, while religious pluralism in particular may place all religions on ‘equal terms’, there are still social questions as to whether certain tenets of ‘religion X’ are accepted.

  6. jusuf says:

    Most immigrants know that Canada has Judeo-Christian values (roman catholic), and need young people to replace the aging population. These people bring in fresh cash money (in 2005 enough cash to live for 6 months under skilled worker category, and those under business category bring in even more than 10x).

    I’d categorized new immigrants into 3 groups:

    1. those to make a better life, and do not care of country values.
    2. those who care about values.
    3. those who has plan to change the existing values.

    Indonesia is a good example and has a similarity with Canada in term of multi cultures, multi languages with a national language to unite people, multi colour of skin, multi religions. Canada has Judeo-Christian values that somehow secularism managed to push this values from public places. Indonesia has Pancasila (believe in one God, unity in diversity and justice for all) though the most muslim population in the world. In 1950 after 5 years independent there’s group of people wanted to make the islamic country just like middle east, but failed. Unfortunately somehow after many years one province that was wiped out by tsunami in 2004 (Aceh) applying shariah law in governing the province. And it will not stop there.

    I remember there was a period where big churches motivated their congregations to leave secular world into more important spiritual world, so many professional back to school studied theology and became pastors. At the same time, under christian umbrella, as a volunteer I was given the opportunity to motivate small churches congregations to keep their professional calling and serve our Lord Jesus. I didn’t know why I did that without any kind of benefit on my part. Now I realized that at the same period, there’re less and less christian having an important position in government.

    What pastor Mark posted was a good start to make people aware of a group of people who already have a plan to change the existing values and at the end replacing the existing constitution. The secularism also need to be aware of, because both christian and secularism are vulnerable to be used for that kind of plan.

    The challenge for Canada churches are not only to unite but to contribute in keeping the existing Judeo-Christian values for all people regardless their religions and belief.
    Majority of immigrants and their future generations I believe will not questions much about the country values, because they’re busy in family and career life. The danger is those who have plan and have support.

  7. Dace C says:

    Thanks for this subject blog Pastor,I am from the UK originally and now im sfraid there is a slow take over in that country by Muslims who have alresdy occupied large areas of British Towns.They have made it known that there sole purpose is to take over the western world I pray that the LORD will come before that happens.

  8. lesley says:

    In reference to one of the comments above, no, Canada has NOT always been a multicultural society. In fact, people of Mediterranian descent were discouraged from immigrating here, and northern and eastern Europeans were encouraged because they were considered hard-working ‘farmer’ types. Hence the prevalence of Polish, Ukrainian etc. people all over the Prairies.

    Out here on the west coast, Chinese people had a ‘head tax’ imposed on them. In building the railway, it was mostly Chinese labourers who were killed because they were not ‘valued’ and so were sent into the mountains with the explosives!

    Also, the Chinese were the prevalent workers in the fish canning industry, and when a machine was invented that would do the work of several Chinese labourers, it was called the Iron Chink!

    All that aside, I’ve been to Britain and could barely find anyone in London who spoke English as they were mostly Middle Eastern. There were mosques everywhere, groups of women draped in black head to toe, radical clerics spewing off about how much they hated and despised us ‘Westerners’, etc. Do you think we’d ever be able to construct a cathedral near Mecca? Not gonna happen.

    I don’t want to be against any one group of people, but I’ve seen how Muslims come to our Western countries and expect all of our values to change for them. I don’t want Christianity and Christian values to become second place or redundant altogether in the face of Islam. And as a woman, I really don’t ever want to be subjected to Sharia law!

    Thank you, Pastor Mark, for keeping up the warnings, lest we become complacent.

  9. Faisal says:

    At least Muslims are not killing millions of innocent people as you are killing in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq and planning to do the same in Iran. Every scientific person now knows that 9/11 was an INSIDE JOB. So, you can’t even show that an excuse either. Please, my dear friends, look at yourself in the mirror. And you will see what type of Hypocrites you people are. I’m sorry to disagree with you, but I believe I’m not illogical at all. Jesus (Peace be upon him) hated hypocrites, remember that.

  10. Mark Hughes says:

    The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian values. It is an American war that unfortunately Canada joined and has NOTHING to do with Christianity. They are fighting in the so called name of democracy not Christ. I do not support either of these wars and have said so many times.
    Other the other hand you and I both know that there are many radical Muslims killing in the name of Allah. You might be interested in the blog I wrote on it.
    http://blog.churchoftherock.ca/the-tears-of-allah

  11. Gary says:

    Fortunately Jesus doesn’t hate anyone including hipocrites otherwise we would all be toast so to speak.

  12. Joe says:

    Pastor Mark, Thank you for standing for what is true, and the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. Muslims core teaching is not for peace, or freedom, or love, but slavery to an evil doctrine.

  13. Jenna says:

    1) “However new Canadians need to be expected to adopt our historic Judeo-Christian values of the sacredness of all human life.” ummm… Your value system came and colonized Canada, destroying many lives in the process. So why are you complaining about people coming to Canada with their own religion? You did the exact same thing to aboriginal peoples 250 years ago! I hope you get a taste of your own medicine.
    Christians should have been expected to adopt even MORE historic Native American spirituality of the sacredness of ALL life, not JUST human.

    2)Under biblical teachings, a woman’s life is ALSO less important than a mans. It’s no better than sharia law. You are hypocritical.

    And shame on you for not allowing aboriginal dancers to perform at a habitat for humanity event held in an unused space of your church. That made me have even less respect for Christians. I hope you all get colonized by atheists… Which will happen eventually.

    • Mark Hughes says:

      1) It is absolutely true that Canada was colonized, by Europeans not a value system. I personally was not part of it. I am a native Canadian since I born and raised here and am therefore not an European. That however does not change the fact that today as a society we have accepted values that we need to protect, irrespective of how they came to be. You cannot somehow turn back the clock of history. Many unfortunate events have occurred in Canada’s history no doubt … as well as every other nation under heaven.
      2) You might want to look into the difference between The Bible and the Koran if you think they are the same in terms of woman. Every place in the world where women have been liberated has been where the teaching of scripture have reached.
      3) Your facts are very wrong on this story. We loaned H for H our sanctuary (not an unused space) free of charge under the conditions that the event would not include anything inconsistent with Christian worship. Habitat knew that all the acts needed to meet our requirements. It was unfortunate that it was not cleared before the invitation went out. The reasoning is not that complicated. The building was bought and paid for by Christian people for that purpose and therefore is our responsibility to ensure that it is not used for other forms of worship. I am pretty sure the local Mosque or Sikh temple would not be too keen on a hosting a christian worship night. It boggles my mind that people cannot seem to understand this.
      The National Post got it – even though they got a few facts wrong – they said it paid the aboriginal community a compliment by taking their faith seriously. Which is exactly what we do. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/editorialsletters/story.html?id=35dec26d-57ca-4735-ba1b-c8f07b02fd0e
      So, we can debate all day long whether Aboriginal dance is only cultural and not spiritual but the facility coordinator who booked the event made the call that it was, given the information that she was provided. It happened almost five years ago and has been discussed to death and so I am not going debate it again here.

  14. Faisal says:

    Lol..Islam is an Evil doctrine..A book of which religion whose first revealed word is “READ”(that means to acquire knowledge) how come it be evil I don’t know. But I know very well how it is labeled as evil. We know how the church tortured Muslims in Spain in the Medieval era whereas Muslims were the one who brought knowledge and enlightened an Europe which was in the spell of dark Barbarians. If it was not for the Muslims, I wonder whether the world would have progressed as much as it did now and you still call Muslims evil, what sort of hypocrisy.

    I’m not saying Christians didn’t do anything. When the Muslims lost their way, Christian scientists started to take the responsibility to enhance human knowledge, but the Christian Church never behaved in a scientific way,unlike the Muslims they tortured lots of scientists including Copernicus and Galileo.

    Anyways, Jesus(peace be upon him) did hate hypocrites but he never told to kill anybody, unlike somebody misunderstood me I didn’t mean to say Jesus didn’t spread peace.

    I didn’t come to quarrel here or to say Christians are bad. Honestly speaking, as Quran said, I always feel Christians are pretty close to Muslims. And indeed there’s not much difference, but a thin line of belief. Still, you people hate Muslims, you people rate them as they are criminals, whereas it is always proved that it is you, the westerners, have done most of the injustice. I know how the European Christians tortured the black people from Africa for centuries, treating them like animals. I wonder why when a guy with Muslim name who does a mistake is labeled as the blame of Islam, whereas US, a fully Christian country, whose Presidents are always devoted Christians, when they kill people, then there’s no fault of Christianity. Why is this hypocrisy?

    Anyways, no matter how much you try, you can’t win against the satanist Atheists. Because the world now belongs to the Zionists, who are in reality Satanists. They are working meticulously to make every Christian into an Atheist. They started with the idea of Communism, secularism and now every Christian country is now basically an Atheist country. You people support these Zionists and they are destroying you, while ironically you are blaming Muslims for everything and you fear Muslims will overtake you. Let me clarify my position, I’d prefer a Christian to an Atheist, because a Christian at least believes in god, but an Atheist doesn’t. So, I’m not happy with this transformation. But I’m baffled by your illogical injustice over Muslims and the way you suspect them. We want peace with you, not war. We know how close Christians are to us in faith, a real Muslim would never go for war with a Christian. It is a Christian King of Ethiopia, who first hosted the Muslim refugees in the era of Muhammad(Peace be upon him), so it is clear to us how close Christians are to us. So, please, don’t spread hatred and suspicion between two Abrahamic faith. Just try to find a way how to live in peace. I hope and pray almighty will guide you to the right path.

  15. Isaac says:

    Really good to see some new people on the blog!

    I’m glad we’re able to have discussions together about some difficult issues.

    It’s really easy to get caught up in a lot of the bigger issues, the history of religion etc. etc. Yet not look inwardly and personally.

    What would be great would be if each of us personally would take some time, try to leave all biases and presuppositions aside, and to reflect on questions like, “what is the purpose of this life?”, “Have I experienced God ever, even as a child?”, “Would I be prepared if I got hit by a bus today and died?”, “What am I living for?”, “Why do so many people talk about how much they love Jesus?”

    I think once you start considering these, and getting good answers, then all the other stuff will begin to make a lot more sense. Also, it will allow us all to consider each other individually and not judge each other based on all kinds of presuppositions, most of which are probably not true or at least distorted.

    So for all the new people commenting on the blog, I just want to say, “Welcome” and I’m praying for you to be blessed.

  16. Jenna says:

    Isaac, the purpose of life is to survive, love and reproduce, this purpose is the same for all animals. We are all animals at the core of our being, we just distracted ourselves with fortresses and walls, jewels and wealth, religion and laws.

    I have not experienced God as he is a mythical creation based on human attributes. I have experienced wonder, awe, amazement, love, grief, humbleness and enlightenment though. That all came from looking up at the stars, being outside and being in tune with nature.

    Would I be prepared for what if I got hit by a bus? For death? I don’t think it matters, death doesn’t wait for preparedness, nor does death punish you for not being prepared. Of course, wouldn’t want to die because I love my family, I love nature and I have still have ALOT to accomplish in life.

    I am living because my mother had me and I am living only to survive and eventually reproduce. What I choose to use my imagination for and dedicate my life to is attaining peace between all people, all animals and all of nature, because our current society is destroying everything that is non-human. Its very disheartening.

    Why do people talk about their love for Jesus? Fear. Fear of being alone in a big bad world, fear of death and departure, fear of different people and unknown circumstances. Fear of not being loved for who you are. Perhaps also some ignorance and uneducation.

    Do all these answers make all larger, interconnected issues make sense as you alluded it would? No. It makes me want to challenge everyone who has an aged, unwelcoming, narrow minded and ignorant mentality. So we can all live in peace. Im secular, but I still live for love. It can easily be done without a God in someones life.

    • Isaac says:

      Hey Jenna. Really glad you took the time to read my post and consider it. That’s great.

      Without trying to be contrary, I’d just like to ask you, what is the end if the only reason you (or all of us) are living is only to survive and reproduce?

  17. Joe says:

    Jenna, I use to be like you.

  18. Jenna says:

    and I used to be like you.

  19. Jenna says:

    My comment is awaiting moderation? Are you monitoring me first now Mark? :) Do you not like what I am saying? I wish you would let me reply to your last set of comments to me. It would be worthwhile to debate you and see if you have enough humility to admit your wrongs in front of your supporters. But here you act like the government, controlling the media people see, ergo twisting their view to your ideology instead of someone else’s. Like mine. I believe my ideology makes more sense than yours. Like my rebuttal to you saying “Every place in the world where women have been liberated has been where the teaching of scripture have reached.” which is completely untrue and I would be happy to provide many examples that support my reasoning, and not yours. Actually I have, 3 times now..

    • Mark Hughes says:

      This is a blog not a chat forum. We always moderate those who post post post and try to drive the agenda of the discussion to their own ends. You don’t want to debate anything. You have come here to bad mouth Christians and showcase what you think are brilliant polemics. Honest debate does not call people names like ‘hypocritical’ and ‘shameful’ etc. What you are resorting to is argumentum ad hominem.
      If you want to debate the liberation of women, if you play nice and discuss ideas and not criticize others, I am sure there are people here that will debate it with you. I don’t actually have time to engage one person who has no intention of listening to the other side anyway. And as I already said I will not debate the Habitat story here. It is old news and been beat to death.

  20. christiansmisrepresented says:

    Nothing like a little “Christian Fear” to scare people about those who are different than they are.

  21. Steve says:

    Jenna, Jesus loves you and cares about you.

  22. Jenna says:

    Isn’t a person hypocritical who speaks against another religions lack of female empowerment while their own religion teaches that females are inferior to males? That’s not an unfounded insult, it’s a word with a direct meaning that matches your actions. This is not an ad hominem fallacy, its logical. My premise (since your religion teaches women are inferior, and you are accusing another religion of not treating women properly…) supports my conclusion (you are being hypocritical). And I fully think you should rightly feel shame for being discriminatory at an event that had nothing to do with your religion. If you don’t feel shame, I feel shame for you. These aren’t unfounded statements which an ad hominem would be, there are clear reasons why I said these things.

    This was my original message you deleted 3 times..

    “1)I didn’t say you personally came and colonized Canada, I said your value system did. Your christian religion colonized, assimilated and enfranchised Canada, not the settlers. Christianity significantly damaged an entire continent of native americans, not the settlers.The damage can still be seen and felt today. 60 years ago the christian missionaries banned native american traditions such as “blasphemous” and “improper” dances, potlatches and songs. It was outlawed actually, then re-enacted many years later as society caught up to human rights. Yet 60 years later, you’re still trying to do what your unlearned predecessors did… Amazing how little your religion evolves and adapts.

    2)Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (“If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife”). The Koran and the Bible both look down on women like they are property to do as the man pleases. The Bible and Koran are therefore both foundations for cruelty, violence and domination. Put it that way and the differences you speak of don’t seem to matter as both have a bloodied history and both cause judgment, division, violence, fear and blind faith.

    “Every place in the world where women have been liberated has been where the teaching of scripture have reached.” Africa is about 40% Muslim and 40% christian. Women are oppressed there more so than just about anywhere. Their fertility rate (In large part because abortion and birth control is looked down upon) is about 6 children. Also, the whole republican party is working on taking birth control and abortion rights away from women, because their religion tells them to. Thats not liberation. Liberation means the right to choose as you wish. Liberation does NOT mean being controlled and/or judged.

    It seems that every place where women have been liberated is where there is separation of church and state, not a merging of the two.

    3)Was there mass or worship being held in the same room as the H and H function? If not, it is unused; available for H and H to use. What dance were they going to perform anyway? And to what God were they planning on appealing to?

    We don’t have accepted values that need to be protected. We have accepted values that need to be challenged. Just as you’re challenging Muslims in thinking your religion is better than theirs. Both religions are setbacks to peace.”

    Do tell me where it is in this reply that I am not playing nice? Do tell me where I am criticizing others? If anything, I am only criticizing (rightly so) your religion. I don’t want to debate the people reading, I want to debate you. You’re the one who prevented aboriginal dancers from performing at last minute, you’re the one I want to challenge.

    How can you say I have no intention of listening? Can you read my mind? Can you predict the future (Isn’t that a sin?)? I would think the fact that I read your first reply to me, corrected your wrongs and provided good counter-arguments, proves that I actually do listen. I actually listen very well, it’s how I get A’s in school. I’m proud of my listening skills and my critical reasoning skills. The fact that you deleted my replies, rewrote your original reply with my (deleted) corrections in your text, then acted like nothing sneaky or out of the norm happened, goes rightly to show your true character. Controlling, frightened, not knowledgeable and manipulative. Yet a leader to those who feel they need one…those don’t seem to be the qualities a leader should have.

    I did not come here to bad mouth christians, I came here to challenge you. Do remember, criticism doesn’t have to be a bad thing…

    Please don’t delete this. Let other people reply if they wish, no need to shield their eyes. If I am wrong on some aspects, and you can prove that to me in your counter argument, then I will gladly admit so. But I have had these arguments many, many times with people of different faiths, and Ive always stood uncorrected.

  23. Jenna says:

    And Steve..If Jesus were real (I’m thinking lack of evidence proves that he wasn’t real), I’m sure he might love you and care about you too. Given that you aren’t a horrible person of course.

    • Steve says:

      Well, I know He loves me, because I’m super awesome! Nah….not really. He seems to show His love more to me when I care about other people rather than myself. It’s rare, but when I surrender my pride to Him, He can really do some good things through me, believe it or not.

  24. Jenna says:

    May I ask how he shows his love for you more when you care about other people rather than yourself? Or rather just how he shows his love to you, period? And when you say you surrender your pride to him, does that mean you admit you are nothing without him? Does it mean that you admit your life is worthless without his guidance and rewards/punishments?

    I’m fully confident its YOU who does good things through you, not anyone else. I’m confident in this because it is proven fact that it is your hands and your imagination that helps other people. It is unproven myth that a deceased theoretical man is working through you. I’d like to hear your opinion because I’d like to understand why religious people give credit to a non-living person for their own actions, while continually discrediting themselves and their own powerful brain.

  25. Steve says:

    Well, the Holy Spirit is something a Christian recieves when they turn to Christ. It is the Spirit of God. I have never had this power in me before I became a Christian, but I have the power of the Holy Spirit in me now.
    I am still me and I can do some stupid things let me tell you, but when His Spirit tells me to do anything like telling you that Jesus loves you and cares about you, I feel His presence and His love very powerfully.
    I felt that you really needed to know how loved you really are. Jesus wanted you to know that. I would never have said that if Christ had not told me to obey Him and tell you.

  26. Zohan says:

    To say that Jesus is not the Son of God is one thing, but to claim that He never existed in the first place is an incredibly ill-informed position. The overwhelming historical evidence proves that Jesus of Nazareth did in fact live 2000 years ago and was in fact crucified by the Romans. Josephus the Jewish historian wrote;

    About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.

    The Roman Tacitus wrote that Nero blamed the fire in Rome in AD 64 on the followers of Christ;

    Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus (Jesus Christ), from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus.

    The Babylonian Talmud C AD 70 also makes mention of the historical Jesus;

    On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.

    The fact that Jesus of Nazareth existed is rarely contested. The bigger issue was did He rise from the dead? If He did and was the Son of God, as Christians believe, He would indeed be alive today and able to love and care for people by living in their hearts. I have heard people explain it this way; Agnostics say, ‘I will believe it when I see it.’ But faith says, ‘you will see it when you believe it.’ That is why Christians who have experienced the person of Jesus in their life, can almost never be talked out of it.

  27. Jenna says:

    First of all, thank you for not citing the bible as a reference. Second of all, overwhelming historical evidence? Overwhelming, really? You cited only 3 pieces of what you label as “evidence” (to which I disagree, and will tell you why).

    The Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the past few centuries to be a forgery. Many hopeful, die hard believers refuse to acknowledge the many scholars who have disregarded it (perhaps you are one of them?). Neither two passages (about Jesus and his brother) are found in the original version of the Jewish Antiquities (which was preserved by the Jews). There is a high probability (we can never be 100% percent certain on most history, but a high probability is good enough for me and the rest of the scientific world) that the two passages were added in between the time christians got a hold of the jewish antiquities and c. 320 C.E. The passages were written by christian redactors, based purely on christian belief. I think its fraudulent to claim that these passages were even written by Josephus and called evidence. Today in court, if a piece of evidence is even slightly tampered with, it is not used as evidence.

    As for Tacticus, there is a high probability it is also fraudulent. Here are the reasons, as noted by Doane;

    “The celebrated passage in Tacticus which
    christian divines-and even some liberal
    writers-attempt to support, is to be found in his Annals. In this work he is made to speak of christians, who ‘had their denomination from christus, who, in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate’ In this answer we have the following:

    1)This passage, which would have served the
    purpose of christian quotation better than any other in all writings of Tacticus, or of any pagan writer whatever, is not quoted by any of the christian fathers.
    2)It is not quoted by Tertullian, though he had read and largely quotes the works of Tacticus.
    3)And though his argument immediately called
    for the use of this quotation with so loud a
    voice, that his omission of it, if it had
    really existed, amounts to a violent
    improbability.
    4)This father has spoken of Tacticus in a way that is absolutely impossible that he should have spoken of his, had his writings contained such a passage.
    5)It is not quoted by Clemens Alexandrinus, who set himself entirely to the work of adducing and bringing together all of the admissions and recognitions which pagan authors had made of the existence of Christ Jesus or christians before his time.
    6)It had been nowhere stumbled upon by the
    laborious and all-seeking Eusebius, who could by no possibility have overlooked it, and whom it would have saved from the labor of forging the passage in Josephus; of adducing the correspondence of Christ Jesus and Abgarus, and the Sibylline verses; of forging a divine revelation of the god Apollo, in attestation of christ Jesus’ ascension into heaven; and innumerable other of his pious and holy cheats.
    7)Tacticus has in no other part of his writings made the least allusion to ‘christ’ or ‘christians’
    8)The use of this passage as part of the
    evidence of the Christian religion, is absolutely modern.
    9)There is no vestige nor trace of its
    existence anywhere in the world before the 15th century.”

    Both Tacticus and Josephus also were born AFTER Jesus had died, making their accounts (if they were actually written by them) hearsay. Hearsay, never counts as evidence as shown by today’s laws.

    As for the Talmud, Yeshu? That doesn’t mean
    Jesus. There are many people who could be
    called Yeshu. Not only that, the Talmud didn’t come into existence until about 2 centuries after Jesus’ execution. So this is simply controversial Christian/Jewish legend, it is not evidence.

    Not only that, even if I do give you the
    benefit of the doubt, the bible says there were “great crowds” and “multitudes” following Jesus’ fame, as he performed many miracles and accomplished impossible feats. So I find it odd that these pieces of “evidence” only consist of a few sentences and only refer to “christ”, which is not a name, but a title.

    There were numerous historians, philosophers and scribes living around the Mediterranean during the time of this Jesus, yet none of them documented him. All other historical records are silent about him. There is no physical evidence, no artifacts, dwellings, works of carpentry or self-written manuscripts. There is no contemporary roman record that shows Pilate executing a man named Jesus.

    I can provide with a multitude of reasons (aside from the debunking I just did) that Jesus did not exist. Shall I? Then you will be left to the debunking…which you wont be able to do.

    PS-You said I was “incredibly” ill-informed. You should perhaps retract that, since the reason you and I don’t agree on Jesus is because I am too well informed where you are lacking. When the evidence is weighed, there are very high odds that the man known as Jesus, simply did not exist.

    • Zohan says:

      Wow, what an arrogant response. Because you know how to go online and cut and paste a rebuttal from someone else that makes you too well informed? Bet you never even heard of those people before today. Sad.

  28. Jenna says:

    Zohan, I though I had experienced Jesus during times of great strife in my life, and I no longer believe in Jesus, God, or any religion. If anything, I can agree with Native American spirituality, I can list you many reasons why. FYI,my answer to your post is awaiting moderation, just in case Mark doesn’t let it through.

  29. Jenna says:

    and Steve..I didn’t get anything substantial in your reply, so I’m not going to address it further. I already know how loved I am by real people (which is all that matters), there is no need for me to be consoled in a manner that you need to be consoled.

    • Steve says:

      Everybody needs to know how much God loves them, sassy or not.
      I have no use in arguing anymore. I’m just going to trust the love that God shows to others will do it’s job sooner or later.

    • Steve says:

      Everybody needs to know they’re loved by God, sassy or not.
      I have no use in arguing anymore. I’m just going to trust the love God gives out to others will do it’s job sooner or later.

  30. Mark Hughes says:

    OK folks this is going no where, I am shutting it down. Jenna clearly already knows everything. I am sure we will be hearing more of her when the next Rhodes scholarship or Nobel prize is announced.

    • Zohan says:

      I didn’t know they have a Nobel prize for PLAGIARISM! The entire post was cut and paste. There wasn’t one original thought.

  31. Jed says:

    These so called limp wristed, wannabee christians are so politically correct it is sickenng…how about coming against the evil cults and witchcraft? Or how about coming against some of the multitude of filth and corruption in our society? Oh “christians” cannot do that they are too good…lol..come on get some courage, and walk boldly and start speaking out on the issues of the day..or maybe it will take sharia law to straighten this cesspool of a mess we call society out? God uses other people so, that is what it will take I am sure!

  32. Joe says:

    Praise the Lord Jesus God Almighty!

    • Janice says:

      Maria its not what the majority of canadians want trust me! We were lied to! We were told they would BECOME CANADIAN. Immigration is killing our nation, our values, our safety, we have hundreds of gangs now in the big cities, there is so much racism you cant even open your mouth now, immigrants get more rights who just land here than real canadians, t hey dont like us our our culture, all they are here for is all the free things we give them (like the government job Im suppose to have sicne my family came in 1630; discounted housing, free language courses, free healthcare, and on and on it goes. This massive immigration from the 3rd world is driving down our effeciency we are now 30th we used to be 3rd in the world. Its true europeans are better trained and share our common culture but its very hard for them to immigrate to canada because canada wants cheap labor. They also are trying to bust the unions and kill the middle class. We will be a mexico in 20 years!! And finally NO ONE SPEAKS ENGLISH ON OUR STREETS CAN U IMAGINE HOW RUDE THAT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  33. Maria says:

    one think I don’t understand. Why Canada has no problem to accept immigrants from muslim countries. But when somebody from Europe would like to come here, they make it difficult as hell. Most Europien people would like to come here because they are looking for a job. They would like to work and pay taxes, open busineses and study. But no. Officer at canadian embasy in Vienna told to my fried that they don’t like europiens because they have a high standards. they would like nice house, good job, decent education etc. Europiens don’t won’t to do dearty jobs and they don’t won’t to be cheap labor.That is why they are not good for Canada any more….

  34. Janice says:

    I am a white christian woman and my friends and I (3 of us) are all canadian and very angry because no one hires canadian born christians anymore in canada, or at least in ottawa. We can barely wear our cross to work- we get stares. Canada is still 76% christian and most do go to church (the media wont tell the truth on this). Its because of christians that we help the whole world out- what other nation does this! In fact most western nations are christian and they are the most giving of all the nations, but not always the richest (look to sauda arabia- do u think if we all move there since our our country wont hire us anymore- they will give us money to build a catholic church and let us celebrate christmas and keep out culture, dont think so!

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