NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY

Welcome to my brand new blog.

The more technically astute staff around here have been telling me for years that I need to start writing a blog.  They have been saying it is a great way to connect with people.  I said, “OK I’m in but I’m only going to do it if I can speak my mind.  No more holding back like I do on TV.”  They said, “You’ve been holding back?”  Well, not entirely but I get letters of complaint every week and I do try not to offend everybody at once.  So, what I am thinking here is to deal with some of the more prickly topics and speak to them plainly.   For some of you that may mean, no more Mister Nice Guy.

In a recent episode I mentioned that a few years ago the House of Commons changed the 6000 year old definition of marriage with the stroke of a pen.  I received many letters on both sides of the issue.  This was one from a typical, misinformed, politically correct, I believe everything I hear on the TV news, type.

Pastor Mark,

You say that politicians with a stroke of a pen changed the definition of marriage.  I couldn’t disagree more.  The issue of gay rights and same sex marriage has been an issue that has be fought with blood, sweat, tears, and trauma, and debated adnosium for the past several decades.

No mention of the fact that because of the Charter of rights and freedoms, same sex rights (including marriage) have been upheld by all courts in this country, including the SCC, so the politicians where simply catching up with these basic human rights

Please continue to spread the message of love, respect, good decisions, education, effort, and a law abiding population, but refrain from those comments that simply degrade and minimize people currently living in loving same sex marriages.  We have enough hate in the world, spread the words of love, caring, and compassion.  We need more of that.

NB

One of the cheapest forms of political debate is to just try to end the argument by labeling someone a racist, bigot or hatemonger.  I have little patience with this tactic.  If there is one thing the Charter of Rights and Freedoms does guarantee, it is freedom of speech.  I decided a long time ago I wasn’t going to let people tell me what I can and cannot say for fear of being labeled.  As a diverse cultural and religious nation there is no way we are all going to see issues the same way, but no one has the right to say you are a hatemonger just because you do not agree ideologically with them.  The most fundamental aspect of democracy is the ability to debate the ideas without being shut down because it is not politically correct.

When people say the church is motivated out of “hate” because we disagree with same sex marriage, they are the offenders of freedom.  The church is merely holding up 6000 years of human tradition not to mention the unequivocal biblical standard on the subject.

Abraham Lincoln once said “the Bible is the best gift God has given to man for without it we would not know right from wrong”.  For those of us who have committed our lives to study and teach the scriptures, we cannot simply disregard the parts that are no longer culturally popular.

The Supreme Court of Canada made a serious judicial error when they upheld same sex marriage.  The Charter of Rights does not include sexual orientation as a fundamental human characteristic and during the entrenching of the Charter in 1982 the Trudeau government specifically stated it would never be extended to include same sex marriage.  So, in fact, it was imposed upon on the Canadian public by Parliament under false pretenses and therefore I stand by my comment that the definition of marriage was changed with the stroke of a pen.

Having said that, I would still stand alongside the homosexual community to fight for their right to be treated equally as human beings.  Marriage, however, is the exclusive domain of one woman with one man.

Pastor Mark Hughes

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93 Responses to NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY

  1. Patricia says:

    Very glad to see you have joined the technological age! I look forward to reading more.

    P.S. Couldn’t agree with you more on your post. Keep up the good work.

    God Bless.

  2. Jim Smith says:

    Although I respect your opinion, I completely disagree with your views. I do believe that each individual Church & pastor should and must be able to decide whether to marry homosexual couples, but this should NOT infringe on the rights of other churches, organizations and individuals who do not share your beliefs. What you and your church define and believe what a marriage is does not make it the standard to be upheld against all people. Isn’t that what human rights and freedom of speech are all about?

  3. RJ Christian says:

    I believe that Pastor Mark is correct when he states that, “with a swoop of a pen” our duly elected Members of Parliament redefined marriage as we understood it. They did so while ignoring the backdrop of human history on the subject and the expressed will of the majority of Canadians. Pastor Mark is also correct when he says that, “no one has the right to say you are a hatemonger just because you do not agree ideologically with them”. That is what this blog appears to be about – the right to disagree. Not a rehash of the gay marriage issue but of the right of every Canadian to disagree on the issue of gays and marriage without being slapped with a label like hatemonger/bigot by those who consider themselves “enlightened” but are nothing more than a type of Taliban Supremist in Politically Correct clothing. I’m sorry, was that a label against dissenting voices? Hence my point. No one deserves a label (hatemonger/taliban) for expressing their “conscience”.
    May God protect us from those who would silence the dissenting voice of conscience on both sides of this issue.

    Let freedom reign!

  4. Jim LeBlanc says:

    Thank you Pastor Mark for your no nonsense approach to the biblically sound principles laid out for us by our loving Heavenly Father. Thank you as well for starting your blog with what I believe is the most important issue the human race is facing, the break down of marriage and family.
    God designed life and all it incompasses and then left us an instruction manual & love letter (The Bible) outlining the way to abundent life!!! It is the reponsibility of all Christian believers to share this Good News with those who require it.
    Included in this manual is the design for spiritual growth, unconditional love and acceptance, freedom and the advancement of life. All these were designed to be discovered and enjoyed in the beautiful institution of marriage.
    Being designed by God, the institution of marriage is therefore exclusive to those who believe and acknowlede God as creator and Lord. So I Fully agree with your last line that states that marriage is the domain of one man and one woman. I would like to, if I may, adjust it to say that marriage is the exclusive domain of one man, one woman and one God.
    Thanks again Pastor Mark for choosing to not be Mr. Nice Guy, but instead choosing to be Mr. Good Guy!!

  5. dea says:

    Great! I look forward to your blog. Between your blog and the other guy’s blog who also “holds his tongue”, Kelly, it should be very entertaining! Thanks for taking the time to blog and keeping everyone in the loop!

  6. Nicole says:

    Yes. No. Yes.

    I disagree with your views on gay marriage, in principle, because the gay couples I know are extraordinarily loving couples. Mind you, I also see extraordinarily loving heterosexual couples.

    I agree with you completely that you have the right to disagree, and that your disagreement is not hatemongering. You’re not advocating action, you’re not cultivating hate; you’re just saying that you think it’s wrong.

    Now… I’m happy to be corrected on this, but it seems to me that the Gospels say nothing about homosexuality. One of the epistles does, but the epistles – I hope – weren’t intended to be eternal truth, but rather direction for the time. Otherwise, women can’t teach in the church, and I disagree with THAT.

    The OT, in Leviticus, prohibits male homosexuality rather specifically, but it also specifies what animals should be sacrificed for the feast of weeks. What authority do we have to say that this rule should be kept and that discarded? If Christ is the ultimate Sacrifice, and no more is needed, that’s fine; however, there are a lot of other laws in Leviticus, about city walls and darkness, for example, why shouldn’t we still follow that one?

    Moving to logistics rather than the love of Wisdom: you may already have decided to do this, but could you please have Tim or someone send out a weekly reminder to check your blog, and a link to it? I’d appreciate that.

  7. Trish K. says:

    Way to go Pastor Mark! I cannot tell you how grateful I am for your program and your stance on this issue. I agree with you whole-heartedly and thank you as well for saying that we can stand together with homosexuals for equality but that marriage is for a man and woman only.

    Blessings,
    Trish

  8. todd says:

    I will certainly not change my mind on gay-marriage whether they make it “law” or not. I recognize that being gay is not a choice however the sanctity of marriage is not open to interpretation. Besides – the whole matter is about the financial benefits that developed around the family unit as society evolved. Give them those benefitshowever leave the word “marriage” out it. Employing that word has been nothing more than a legal tactic. Shame on them for offending the massive majority of people in doing so.

  9. Simon says:

    Right off the starting line you start hitting the “hot” bottons. No more mister nice guy? You were pretty nice in your blog – I didn’t see you degrade anybody, or put any group down (okay, maybe the politicians, but they can handle it – comes with their job description). I agree with your opinions and wholeheartedly believe that all people, especially Christians must treat everyone equally as humans. We are all equal as human beings because we are made in the image of God. The struggle is that the image has been distorted and we often see our own image in a better light than the image of others that we differ with.

    There is a saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you keep hitting those hot buttons you are really going to start squeaking.

    Looking forward to future blogs.

  10. Pastor Mark says:

    Nicole

    Even if you aren’t willing to accept the Old Testament perspective on homosexuality, the New Testament is abundantly clear on the matter. Just because the words aren’t in gospel red that doesn’t make them any less the word of God. There is not a single shred of evidence in scripture that God is OK with same-sex marriage and any attempt to make the case will always be unconvincing to say the least.

    Romans 1:22-27 Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man––and birds and four–footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    Notice however how homosexulaity isn’ t singled out as the only offending sin. It’s just one of many, both heterosexual and homosexual, that Christ has the power to forgive through the work of the cross.
    Pastor mark

  11. Jim LeBlanc says:

    Beautiful response to Nicole’s comment! Scriptural and beautiful!!

  12. Mathew Povey says:

    One can look at abortion and without looking into the bible can find that it is ethically wrong. The abortion debate is EASY to win. However, homosexuality and gay marriage issues are not issues that can be settled with mere ethics. On a pure secular perspective; what is wrong with two same sex persons declaring they want to spend their lives with one another? None. What is wrong with sam sex marriages? None. Homosexuals are no less qualified to be good parents, good citizens, and contributers to planet earth. But, to the Christian, this is a sticky situation, we base our perspectives (hopefully) from this thing called the Bible. The bible is clear about homosexuality; the pyshical acts are sins. God does not approve of same-sex sex, thus He does not approve of that same type of union one can have through marriage. But what about mere orientation?
    The secular world defines human beings by their sexual oreintation, but Christian’s define themselves by God. As soon as we attack a person’s sexual orientation it becomes an attack on WHO THEY ARE. This is why the opposition is so great. Would Christians make a big deal if same sex marriages were called something else? Civil unions, perhaps?
    The definition of two lines that rhyme is called a couplet, NOT a hiaku. I’ll leave you with that.

  13. David Penner says:

    Thanks, Tim, for letting us know about the BLOG. I found Mark’s message and the responses very interesting and well thought out. I look forward to reading the debates that ensue. This will be a great platform for discussing issues.

  14. Dale says:

    Thank-You very much Mark for your courage in standing firm on this subject. I agree with you totally and it’s so nice to see someone in the public eye fighting for such an important issue as marriage and the family. I think it’s apparent how as the family unit breaks down, so does society in general. They can pretend and label it whatever they want but it’s not marriage. If you don’t have a man and a woman – you don’t have a marriage; plain and simple. Isn’t that the true definition of a marriage? I agree with Todd about originally being about getting the same financial advantages as married people. I’m all for that. Give it to them but let’s not fool ourselves and call it marriage! So many people in positions of higher authority have just given in to all the mainstream pressure to accept and push same sex marriage. Probably because it’s easier to give in than to stand up for what we believe in, and or to promote our careers. I thank God that I was raised in a traditional Family. Thanks again Mark for speaking up for all of us that still believe in the sanctity of marriage. Way to go! Keep up the excellent work.

  15. Christine says:

    Should I stay or should I go? I will never forget the day I sat before Mark and hear him ask us all to speak to our polititians about the debate on gay marriage. I didn’t know what he meant; speak to polititians to encourage or discourage gay marriage? I sat listening and waited, thinking of course such a wonderful church would encourage us all to do the right thing and allow gay people to be married in the same way that strait people are. When I realized that was not the message, I felt sick. I thougth I belonged, I thought I was of the same mind as Church of the Rock.
    No longer a debate, I have attended gay weddings but have not attended Church of the Rock much the last while and am still conflicted as to weather I can or should be a member for a church that has differant thoughts on such an issue as I do.
    I grew up in the Catholic church and never felt I belonged, I thought I found that in Church of the Rock but don’t know what to do now.

  16. Darlene says:

    Christine:
    Are you a follower of man or a follower of God? Read the Scriptures and the truth will be revealed to you as to the decision you need to make.
    After 25 years in the same church, I needed to make a decision as to whether I should stay or go. My spirit was uneasy as I knew that the Word of God was not being preached there. God blessed me ten fold for standing firm in my Christian beliefs.
    As for the gay issues, I have a member of my family who is gay. He knows that I love him dearly and he knows that God loves him dearly. As with all sin, we hate the sin but love the sinner.
    You should feel blessed to have such a Christ-filled church in your community. I have been watching Church of the Rock on TV for several years and rest assured, if it were in my community, I’d wouldn’t miss a Sunday! Pastor Mark says it like it is. Granted, he can be very blunt at times but he DOES speak the Word of God.
    Christine, Satan will make you feel conflicted in your decision. I will be praying that God will make it very clear to you as to what is right in His eyes and according to His will. God Bless you.

    • Stuart Meisters says:

      We are all different and were born from love. One group is no better, or greater loved by God and he is our creater. To say that homosexuals are not permitted, or accepted, or acknowledged, is just as inappropriate as those were who said that blacks were not permitted to marry whites. 50 years from now we will look at this issue as simply rediculous. Religion is simply a business and unfortunately is responsible for segregating people within our own communities by focusing on differences. This is exactly what Jesus refused to do, and encouraged others to exercise acceptance to everyone for peace. For religion to succeed and move forward, there must be acceptance for everyone. The bible was written by man, living in a very harsh narrow minded world and these words are interpreted by man today. Some of these words are followed and some are not. That tells me that the bible is not a relevant today as it was back then and we must accept change. Those who do not accept one group or another are simply showing their prejudice regardless of how they convince themselves otherwise. It is only God who has the right to judge, so allow him to do his job and we can do ours. Live in peace and love your brothers and sisters regardless of their beliefs. That is Gods message.

  17. Mark Hughes says:

    Christine
    If you can only go to a church (or anywhere for that matter) where you agree on everything, you will never be able to leave the house.
    You are always welcome at Church of the Rock…as are all straight or gay people. The day we close the doors to homosexuals, is the day we close the door to sinners…and then we would have to kick everybody out.
    It is God’s sole perogative to decide what’s a sin and what isn’t…not yours…or mine.

  18. William says:

    Pastor,

    I respect you standing up for your beliefs and GODS beliefs. I also wholeheartedly agree. What would be great to see is you also taking a strong stance on God’s word on TV and everywhere else regardless of which people are offended. The word is sharp, and the Holy Spirit takes care of people’s convictions, so I wouldn’t sugar coat or keep my tongue from saying what the Lord would have you to talk about. Who knows, you may change some people’s live’s at the same time as you are offending someone else. But let God handle the offense, and let God handle what you preach. Just my two cents Pastor, I know you’re doing what you know. I’ve attended a lot of services and I think that if you would discontinue holding back in effort to make everybody happy, then God would purge the church of those that are still on “milk” and move your ministry towards something greater and more powerful. You’re right on the brink of God’s big move for you and this city if you would go ahead and handle his work even if someone is “hurt” or “uncomfortable”. Keep GOD and LOVE first, the rest will flow.

  19. Bryan says:

    Great post Mark. Nice that you started with such a light topic that we can all agree on, giving you plenty of time to get to the tougher issues later. :)

    I’ll never understand why anyone wants “church-lite”. The word of GOD is the word of GOD. If people want to pick-and-choose what they do and do not want to be taught or enforced, why are they even going to church in the first place?

    Certainly my “straight” sin is no less sinfull than another’s homosexual sin, and the Lord knows what a wretched sinful creature I am. Yet, I would never want to be part of a church that didn’t hit me between the eyes about my sin, and keep me focussed on GOD’s word, especially when I start to go my own way….again.

  20. tanya says:

    Pastor Mark, I’m so glad that you decided to ease into this blogging thing gently without a big controversy.
    Matthew Povey, Last I checked marriages were a vow to be bound to one another in every aspect, including the physical sense. It is a commitment to living life with that person, including in the most intimate of ways. Endorsing gay marriage is endorsing a commitment to have homosexual relations for the rest of one’s life. Speaking against gay marriage is speaking against the act of homosexuality, not people of a certain orientation. Changing the semantics to civil unions doesn’t change the meaning. If you’re talking about two people committing to live together without sex, it’s called being roommates.
    Darlene is right about loving the sinner, hating the sin. I have two close relatives who are homosexual and several relatives and friends who are heterosexual but having sex outside of marriage. I love them all dearly (and also love their significant others). I don’t go around yelling at them to repent or anything, but they know how I feel. I’ve turned down invitations to homosexual ceremonies as graciously as possible and still been called closed-minded…not by those who invited me, because they understand, but by those who don’t even really know me.
    By law, we as Christians are entitled to have our own beliefs and to voice them. Unfortunately some people mistake integrity in one’s own beliefs for hate. It is sad when Christians are viewed as people who judge instead of people who love. If you don’t know Pastor Mark, please take my word for it, he speaks from a position of love & wanting to help humanity, not sitting in judgment over everyone.

  21. Ivan says:

    With reference to the person who talked about the gay “orientation”, if man (woman) is made in God’s image, and throughout the Bible it’s repeatedly said that homosexuality is wrong as is sodomy (ie.Sodom and Gomorah were burnt), then by transitive property God doesn’t make gay people. I know there are a lot of other arguments, (some animals engage in this activity apparently) however, people choose to live in the lifestyle that they engage in. Homosexual people chose to be homosexuals, just like people who steal chose to steal. It all comes down to decisions that people make.
    In regards to gay people being capable of raising children the same as a straight couple, there are SOOO many arguments for that. Men and women are created differently for a reason because they both bring different gifts and talents to the table and when it comes to raising children, both are invaluable. It is unfortunate that some people die, leaving widows and widowers, but it is taught in the Bible that the church help out those in need. Men are leaders and the head of the home while women are stereotypically known as nurturing and caring (not that men can’t be nurturing and women can’t be leaders). Children in a home need BOTH influences. Gay people are capable of love and nurturing as well because they’re just as human but to provide that in a home isn’t balanced.

    • Stuart says:

      Are you gay? If not, how would you know that homosexuals are choosing a gay lifestyle? When did you choose to be straight? There is never a point when someone chooses to be gay or not. When you go into puberty you are sexually attracted to one sex or another. When are person is no longer having sex, are you still gay? What makes a person gay if you are not having sexual relations? This just shows that people are people first. Whether you accept it or not, makes no difference. There are millions of homosexuals around the world so this is not a flash in the pan. This is reality and as long as people reproduce, their will be gay people on this earth. Those who are prejudice against others need to pray for forgiveness.

  22. I think that our churches everywhere need a huge wake-up call. There appears to be hardly any difference anymore between the Christians and the non-Christians. I was asked to leave my pentecostal church in Brandon, Manitoba; Bethel Christian Assembly, when I wrote a letter to the Editor saying that the city needed new ideas. The Pastor was friends with the Mayor. The Mayor lets the Pastors of the city pray at City Hall. The Pastor and the Mayor were friends. Both are from the same political party.

    Things kind of got crazy after this when I was so angered that I chose to run against the Mayor. Since then, it has been so-called Christians and church people that have hurt me the VERY, VERY most.

    A letter appeared in the Brandon Sun which I did not submit. This letter to me was this letter from my former pastor asking me to find another church to worship in. It appeared on the front page of our local paper. Another mayoral candidate submitted this to The Brandon Sun after I showed him this letter because he couldn’t believe that I received a letter like this and also because he was running against me in our municipal election.

    The Mayor of Brandon’s campaign Mgr. and most of his campaign team were from my former church and some of them were viscious; I mean really viscious!

    Next, the Secretary of this church started telling people that I didn’t even know untruths about me. Things began appearing on the Internet about me, from people that I never met from there, that were not true.

    Next, the President of the Manitoba Teacher’s Society was from my former church and ever since then, they HAVE NOT allowed me to even substitute teach in Brandon.

    The very last thing was another member of THIS SAME church lied and helped my neighbor take my 9 yr. old daughter’s puppy out of our yard and away from us because she was mad at me. This puppy was a gift to my 9 yr. old daughter from her father, whom she hardly ever gets to see.

    My daughter cried for half a year over her puppy. The guy from the Animal Pound was a nephew of this lady and her daughter worked at the Animal Pound and they now adopted our puppy to this neighbor WHO LIVES DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM US!!!!!!!!

    I wrote to this Pastor on many occasions. I received a letter from the desk of this Pastor stating that, “Any further correspondence from me would be deleted and/or ignored.”

    Pretty Christian, eh?

    You see, the former Administrator of this church had a husband who was a crook but he gave ALOT of money to this church and this couple were REAL GOOD friends of this Pastor and his wife.

    I am a single parent of three children. I bought this house from the former Administrator’s husband. I thought that IF you said that you were a Christian, that this actually meant something.

    The husband fleeced me BIG TIME.

    I am stuck with a character home that will require TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS worth of repairs! I’m just suppose to forgive him the Pastor kept telling me.

    I wanted this Pastor to make this guy ACCOUNTABLE for his fraudulent actions, cover ups and lies to me about this house.

    I wanted the church to be accountable for the actions of one of their members. They wanted no part of that. I was NOT even a member of this church.

    I have never been so hurt, betrayed and disgusted as I am with this church. People from there who were FRIENDS with this former Administrator, believed the lies of this couple and believe me to be the evil doer.

    Never, have I seen such spiritual warfare.

    We were always taught about the “wolves in the world.”

    Well, what about the wolves, right there amongst us, in our churches? These people who profess to be Christians but yet are anything but this.

    What about the people in our churches who try to CONTROL others?

    What about the treatment of women in some of these churches by these male pentecostal men?

    Did Rosa Parks, when she was told to get to the back of the bus, say, “Just a minute, I’ll have to go and ask my Pastor first if I can have a personal opinion?”

    I am VERY HURT and BETRAYED by the largest church in Brandon where ALOT of my friends were.

    It’s like being SHUNNED, which I was.

    I went to another church in Brandon and signed up for a Bible Study and I was told that I COULD ATTEND CHURCH THERE BUT THAT I COULDN’T ATTEND THE BIBLE STUDY UNTIL I MADE IT RIGHT WITH THIS FORMER PASTOR.

    I told this Pastor WHOM I DIDN’T EVEN KNOW that he didn’t even know the truth and the whole story and that this isn’t fair to me.

    WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THE CHURCH STARTS ACTING LIKE A DICTATOR over your personal life because of the ego of their Pastor who wants to CONTROL his sheep because he is friends with a Mayor that does corrupt things that SOME OF US ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO EXPOSE.

    Am I NOT suppose to have a voice just because I am a woman and a teacher?

    What happened to freedom of speech and basic human rights?

    We MUST be living in the last days, to think that I have even had to go through something as AWFUL and UNBELIEVEABLY BETRAYING as this situation.

    Please pray for me because I am STILL so very hurt and betrayed and I plan to run against the Mayor again in 2010 because I want to see the REAL TRUTH get out there to the majority electorate.

    What do you do when the church becomes your enemy and you are FORCED to stand all alone because these men that are called Pastors are trying to control you because that is what some of these Pentecostal men are used to and all that they know how to do?

    What do you do when people from inside your own church start telling lies to your Pastor? He believes them because the Bible talks about having 2 or 3 witnesses. What about IF those witnesses are lying? It’s like having WITCHES inside your church.

    God forbid that He might even wish or choose to use a WOMAN!

    Sorry, but I am still VERY upset about having had to go through ANY of this.

    This church ABSOLUTELY refuses to have anything further to do with me. So much for FORGIVENESS from the body of Christ, eh?

    I just REALLY care about my city and I tried to expose what I see as the STRONGHOLDS over my city and I dared to speak up and speak the truth and this ALL occured as a result of having VERY GOOD intentions and for CARING about the majority electorate and wanting something SO MUCH BETTER for my city and ALL of its inhabitants.

  23. Ian says:

    I agree with you 100% Pastor Mark. Nobody has the right to re-define something they didn’t define to begin with. As far as tax breaks I don’t agree with that either. Whether it is a homo sexeual couple or a couple living common law it is still not a marriage. Just because two people sign a lease on an apartment together should not make them a legal couple. A marriage is ordained by God but is also a legal thing. Because two people share a home and claim any sexual orientation should not give them any special treatment as far as tax breaks.

    Most importantly though it diminishes the beauty of marriage as God intended it.

  24. todd says:

    Deborah you should sue the whole lot of them. I’m serious.

    I hear many people attempt to make the argument that same-sex couples can raise children just as good as a man and woman. What? Who’s children would they be “raising”? Then those same supporters dig deeper with – “well, just look at all the abandoned kids that need loving homes’”. Sadly, that part is true however it’s only true because we’ve sat idly by while the institution of the family unit has been bastardized year after year in the name of Rights. Others’ rights – versus mine or ours. It’s not far off whereby a gay couple would demand the right to run a daycare and I would not have the right to choose to go elsewhere. I’ve had it up to here with “rights” – especially when most of them are so clearly “wrongs”.

    My wife and I (and our 4 and 3yr old) have had it with the direction society is going and we’re reverting back to the good old days of our grandparents – farming and raising food and animals. The only trip we now make into the city is to go to Church of The Rock and bare necessities. You’d be surprised how many families are actually going “off the grid”.

  25. tanya says:

    Ivan,
    We may be made in the image of God, but through Adam we were ALL born into a sinful nature. If you need proof of that just watch some young children playing in a group for a while, they act more like barbarians than christians. I guess that’s kind of a biblical argument for the “I was born gay” theory. You may never have faced the temptation of homosexuality, but I can guarantee that sometime in your life you have sinned, whether it was fudging your tax return, stealing office supplies or lying to your mother about whether you finished your homework. It doesn’t really matter what your sins are, because all have the same penalty and you are held accountable unless you let Jesus take that burden away. I’ve rarely seen anyone come to Christ through someone arguing theology with them…showing love works much better. I totally agree that children are best raised in a loving home by a Christian mother and a father, but I have a hard time believing that being raised by a homosexual man is any worse a situation than a single non-Christian heterosexual father.

    Deborah,
    I think it’s very sad that you are in this situation. Christians should stand apart from the rest of the world because of the fruits of the Spirit, but sadly many people profess to be Christians when they certainly don’t act like it. It is obvious that you are still very hurt and angry. And possibly that is why the 2nd pastor urged you to go back and approach your former pastor (Matthew 18:15-17). Bitterness and anger (whether it’s justified or not) hurts you a lot more than it hurts anyone else. I hope these issues get resolved, but even if they don’t, I hope you can let go of all the hurt you are carrying around. I’ll pray for you.

  26. Jim LeBlanc says:

    Way to go Ian, Ivan, Todd and Pastor Mark!!
    I as well am sick and tired of “Rights” and “political correctness”. How about “Bibilical Correctness” since this is the code by which we as Christian have chosen to live. I am not saying we are above the law, however, when man made laws and Gods unfailing word disagree Christians ought to stand by their chosen faith and if neccesary fight back. I am in disbelief that people that are professing Christians would out of the same mouth they praise the God who established the institution of marriage as the first act after creating humans (opposite sex humans I might add) would stand for a “Quasi” or “Psydo” institution that the gay community would have us call marriage as well.

  27. Jasmine says:

    Pastor Mark,
    Well said! You care enough to confront and you’ve done it in a very respectful way. God bless you and your church abundantly. And I agree with Darlene, “rest assured, if it (Church of the Rock) were in my community, I’d wouldn’t miss a Sunday!”

    Jim Smith,
    I agree with you that “each individual church and pastor should and must be able to decide whether to marry homosexual couples” because that is where the Charter of Rights and Freedoms really applies since this country was built on Christian values like free will and freedom of choice. But they should do so only after crying out to the Lord for wisdom and discernment and searching the Scriptures for God’s truth on the matter as for everything else in life. We have broken God’s heart too many times because we have chosen to do things that have taken us further away from Him and His truth. My, how far we have drifted from the standards that were set out for us in the bible. And Pastor Mark never claimed to define marriage; God created the institution of marriage, so He is the only one who can define it. We Christians only choose to believe the truth that God reveals about Himself and what pleases Him through Scripture, and we would never presume to dictate that others should believe it as well. We are called to serve each other in love, so “hate” and “dictatorship” are completely inapplicable in our lives if we are truly living with the Spirit of Jesus within us.

    Jim LeBlanc,
    I agree with your statements, “Being designed by God, the institution of marriage is therefore exclusive to those who believe and acknowledge God as Creator and Lord.” and “that marriage is the exclusive domain of one man, one woman and one God.”
    How can anyone believe in the institution of marriage without believing in the One who created it? And if they claim to believe in the One who created it, they must live their lives according to His true nature as is revealed in His unchanging, undeniable and undisputable Word. If we claim to believe in Him, then His character defines what our actions should be.

    Simon,
    I disagree with your comment, “The struggle is that the image has been distorted and we often see our own image in a better light than the image of others that we differ with.” I believe that all true followers of Christ know, understand and acknowledge that they are no better than anyone else; in fact, when they honestly assess themselves in light of God’s holiness and their sinfulness, their humility is what sets them apart. The humility that comes from the deep, heart-rending anguish we feel when we truly see ourselves for the unworthy, sinful creatures that we are. We Christians don’t see our own image in a “better” light, but in “God’s light” which is a “different” light from that of this world’s. And differences should be accepted, should they not?

    Deborah Boschman,
    Do you believe that God engineers our circumstances and that whatever happens ultimately glorifies Him? If you truly believe that, then try to learn from your experience. Ask God for wisdom in this situation and open yourself to the truths He wants to teach you. You have suffered…but it doesn’t come anywhere close to how much Jesus suffered for you. Allow His joy to be complete in you by forgiving those that have wronged you. Ask Jesus to release you from your anger and bitterness. It didn’t matter that the second pastor didn’t know the whole story, he didn’t have to know. He could see that you needed healing and that it would only come when you chose to forgive the people that had hurt you, so his suggestion to you was only for your own good. Please don’t sin in your anger and thus move yourself further away from His light. Let it go, because vengeance is the Lord’s.

  28. mike says:

    At a family gathering a while back this topic came up and we named all the people we knew that were practicing homosexuals in high school and to our shock every single one of them is now dead because of Aids. When I talk to homosexuals I don’t even bring up Scripture because sadly the stats speak loud and clear. God only speaks against it because He loves us and wants to protect us.

  29. David John Cripps says:

    To Pastor Mark,
    The definition of marriage always was and still is procreation, one man one woman coming together as THE FATHER prescribed to add to this wonderful miracle of birth.He yearns for his creation simply because his love is unfathomable.As regards homosexuality we as christian followers of the WAY, JESUS. We should in no way water the faith down to conform to mans appetites of the flesh.We all know Jesus would never turn his back on those that would come to him whoever they are, Christian homosexuals or sympathisers would do well to ponder what has already happened in the various denominations so far.Do we obey the laws of the creator or not? We have in our midst a truly anointed & blessed brother Pastor Mark,very much under the direction of the Holy Spirit,Let us support and encourage our brother and not try to tear him down, pray for him and all our Pastors.

  30. k rekedal says:

    way to go Pastor Mark! you should check out the following http://www.parentalrights.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={B56D7393-E583-4658-85E6-C1974B1A57F8}

  31. Todd, thank you and the others for your replies. Todd, I agree about your wanting to “get off the grid.” I proposed this very thing when I tried to run at the Federal level. I think that we should be building greenhouses in our communities, organic gardens, going back to the ways of our forefathers, getting off the grid, etc. THIS IS the way of the future, I believe and MANY others will resort to this, IF ONLY just out of pure frustration. We need to STOP our use of insecticides, pesticides, growth hormones, genetically modified foods, etc.

    Just look at ALL of the cancers out there. We need to TURN BACK in SO MANY WAYS; spiritually, nutritionally, physically, mentally.

    Right now there is an email by the beef producers of Canada saying that McDonald’s is now going to buy ALL of it’s beef from South America, BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER THERE but also these cattle producers WARN THAT THEY ALSO DON’T HAVE THE REGULATIONS FOR THEIR BEEF that we have in Canada. They are saying that THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS FOR THE CONSUMER because these South American beef producers are using growth hormones in their beef, insecticides, pesticides, etc. and that WE SHOULD BEWARE as consumers!

    I have spoken now to TWO individuals who told me that their Doctors have helped to cure them of their cancers by using wholistic methods of EATING THE RIGHT FOODS, watching what they eat, using non-traditional wholistic methods and that they WERE BOTH HASSELED BY THE MEDICAL PROFESSION AND BY THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES.

    Both Doctors were told to SHUT UP and NEVER EXPOSE what they know.

    There is ALOT OF MONEY TO BE MADE by these pharmaceutical companies. THIS IS ALL ABOUT GREED, POWER, MONEY AND CONTROL.

    These companies WANT us to be sick because then THEY make money. They really DON’T want us to be well.

    Perhaps I will try to get on later and share more. I have to go now and take my daughter to camp.

    Talk to you all later.

    God be with, protect and bless you all!

  32. todd says:

    Thanks for that Deborah. The same kind of “authorities” that disfigured marriage with a pen-stroke have been responsible for perpetrating the greatest fraud in history – Medicare and Pharmacare. With our billion$ they’ve built fortified walls and confidants all bound by endless greed. Those institutions are entirely unsustainable and they know it – they’re just in it for the massive, unquestioned, fresh-supply of cash that flows to the trough. As far as food-supply – my wife and I buy nothing packaged anymore – have you read the labels? It’s like big Pharma got into the food business (they did). I’m sorry for getting off topic here but this is such a worthy discussion and we’re finding it’s usually only the Faithful that know what we’re talking about on these subjects. I question every institution nowadays except one. With the exception of God and his house – trust no one.

  33. Ed says:

    I totally agree with Pastor Mark’s message. As for the “No more holding back like I do on TV” comment, that’s a good one. :)

    But here’s my concern: Nothing’s going to change.

    The governing federal party is Conservative, and many of its members (including PM Harper) can be described as socially conservative who support the traditional definition of marriage. But I don’t believe Parliament will ever vote this way. Problem no. 1 is that the Conservatives only have a minority government and there are not enough members among the other parties who support this. But here’s problem no. 2: Even if the Conservatives did have a majority, I’m not confident that they would make this an issue again.

    The perception is that most Canadians, unless they live in staunchly socially conservative ridings like Provencher, do not oppose gay marriage. It’s not so much that most people support it, but most people like to think of themselves as open-minded and tolerant, so they adopt a “live and let live” attitude. And admittedly, the gay movement has done a pretty effective job of marketing the gay marriage issue as a basic human rights issue. Even if the majority of Canadians don’t support gay marriage, the most vocal support always seems to come from the gay marriage supporters, so there at least is the perception that there is a lot of support. And don’t get me started on the left-leaning media, who seem to treat every gay pride event with front-page attention suggesting a grand triumph of human rights. Any event by traditional marriage supporters gets buried on the back page with the implication that the religious freaks are at it again.

    So unfortunately, not even a socially conservative governing party is willing to commit political suicide by opening up this debate again. No while it’s not impossible that the traditional definition of marriage is restored (amazingly it happened in California), it really seems unlikely.

  34. Took my daughter to Spruce Woods Provincial Park for a holiday with a family friend for a week. Pretty nice!

    Another thing is that when we pray the Our Father we say, “Thy Will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven.” Well, when are we going to start seeing some of this?

    I REALLY want to see this.

    I think that we DESPERATELY need to get out into the streets IF WE REALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD IS WHO HE SAID HE IS.

    I find it VERY DIFFICULT to wait until I am dead for justice when I stand before God. WHY, just why can’t I have it on earth? What good will justice do me when I am dead?

    WHY isn’t MORE being done to raise money, to EVANGELIZE AND GET OUT INTO THE STREETS IN WINNIPEG?

    WHY isn’t the church trying to REACH ALL OF THESE LOST TEENAGERS BEFORE THE GANGS GET TO THEM?

    WHY isn’t MORE being done by the First Nations leadership of Wpg. and by the leaders of Wpg.?

    I REALLY think that we DESPERATELY NEED TO TAKE THE GOSPEL OUTSIDE OF THE WALLS OF OUR CHURCHES. That is, IF WE REALLY BELIEVE WHAT THE GOSPEL SAYS.

    DO WE REALLY BELIEVE THIS?

    If we do, then we need to move INTO ACTION.

    I wrote a letter to the editor of our local paper recently regarding the plight of our disadvantaged youth in Brandon. Now, what I feel I need to do, is MOVE INTO ACTION WITH A PLAN, myself.

    I am going to TRY to raise money to get these disadvantaged kids into some SPORTS, MUSIC, GOLF, ANYTHING TO KEEP THEM BUSY AND ACTIVE and OFF of the streets.

    Perhaps they are choosing the gang life BECAUSE OUR CHURCHES, COUPLED WITH THEIR FAMILIES HAVE FAILED THESE KIDS.

    I am also planning to try to start an annual Westman Aboriginal Achievement Awards right here in Brandon to CELEBRATE ALL OF THE STRENGTHS OF THE FIRST NATIONS KIDS, LEADERS, right here in our area/region.

    I thought about things and I would like my life to COUNT FOR SOMETHING POSITIVE ON THIS PLANET. I REALLY do want to hear my God say to me, when I see Him face to face, “Well done, my good and faithful servant.”

    I am human and I am CERTAINLY NOT GOD. I sometimes wonder WHY or HOW God PUTS UP WITH ALL OF US, our frailties, weaknesses, etc.

    I CHALLENGE ALL OF YOU to try to STEP OUTSIDE OF THE BOX, maybe you are ALREADY doing this, and TRY TO REALLY REACH THESE LOST YOUTH IN WINNIPEG.

    Why isn’t MORE being done in Winnipeg and surrounding areas?

    I have written to the Wpg. Free Press for YEARS asking them this question.

    I’d ideally like to see us PRAYING FOR PEOPLE RIGHT THERE ON THE STREETS.

    IF THIS GOSPEL IS TRUE, THEN WHY AREN’T WE TAKING IT TO THE STREETS?

    We ALL have a MISSION FIELD RIGHT WHERE WE ARE, IN OUR OWN BACKYARDS. I am talking to myself now, too, I hope you realize.

    This is my heart at this stage in my life. I am 52, a single parent of 3 children and a teacher who isn’t even allowed to substitute teach in my home city because of lies from the pit of hell.

    I just thought about things the other day and I thought, well, the Bible says that, “they will know us by our fruits” and I thought, well, I have to do MORE.

    I just want to do something POSITIVE and leave something GOOD, WHOLESOME and WORTHWHILE for the planet, BESIDES trying to do the VERY BEST JOB that I can, as a single parent; even though I fail lots and lots of times.

    So, this is my challenge to ALL of you in Winnipeg. WHAT are you guys doing to reach the LOST YOUTH in your city? I just think that wherever we are, that we have to try to do MORE.

    I would REALLY like to get enough funds next year, perhaps to take some of these kids by bus on a holiday somewhere or something; to B.C. or Teen Ranch in Ontario, or a Christian bible camp or something to show them that there is MORE than what they have, perhaps been exposed to.

    I’d IDEALLY like to see our business leaders here in Brandon choose to give 10% of their annual income to fund projects AROUND THE WORLD; to help communities get safe drinking water, to help women start up their own businesses, etc.

    WOULDN’T IT BE SO COOL to see HOW MUCH GOOD WE COULD DO FROM OUR CHURCH BODIES to BLESS the rest of the world, or from our own communities?

    THIS is the LASTING LEGACY OF HAVING DONE SOME REAL GOOD DEEDS, FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, that I would ideally like to leave this planet.

    How about ALL of you?

    We should all START this year. What do you think? We should have a plan, a goal and let’s GO FOR IT.

    The Bible says, “Go ye into all the world,…” It doesn’t say, just be COMFORTABLE in our churches and start fighting and bickering with one another, because we are all so stupidly human and weak and such sinners. I think that the devil is REALLY alive, well and THRIVING in some of our churches.

    IF we REALLY BECAME WHO WE SAID WE WERE, WE COULD BE A DYNAMIC FORCE FOR CHANGE IN OUR WORLD, for GOOD and then maybe, just maybe, IF we were MORE REAL with the world, they’d also want to know who this Jesus guy really was.

    WHAT DO YOU THINK? I think that our ACTIONS in these last days are going to speak a WHOLE LOT LOUDER than just our WORDS.

    I also believe that we will get WHAT WE TOLERATE.

    Are you ready to rock Winnipeg and our world?

    Talk to your Pastor, because I DO NOT KNOW HIM but I have heard WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM and I did actually meet him and ask him to pray for me, once, when I was able to attend your church in Wpg. Perhaps this is the course that you are ALREADY ON and perhaps you have ALREADY DONE HUGE things for the Kingdom of God in Wpg. but don’t you think that we REALLY COULD DO WAY MORE?

    WHAT DO YOU THINK?

    Please PRAY HARD for me because I WANT TO SEE WHAT WE PRAY WHEN WE SAY, ‘THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.’

    WOULDN’T THAT BE SO VERY COOL? This is my heart for my city of Brandon, Manitoba.

    I want to see us COMPETE with you guys for tourism, for attractions, for EVERYTHING.

    Right now I think that we are kind of in Sleepy Hollow mode here in Brandon.

    I’d like to SHAKE THIS PLACE UP FOR GOOD, FOR THE GLORY OF GOD!

    I also want to plan to start HAVING CHURCH here in the Fall on the weekends.

    Perhaps we could CONVINCE YOUR CHURCH TO COME DOWN, AND YOUR AWESOME PASTOR MARK, TO EVANGELIZE OUR COMMUNITY AND TO SHARE A WEEKEND OR TWO WITH US?

    We are SUPPOSE to be the HEAD and NOT the tail. I think that WE are the ONES who NEED TO STEP OUT OF THE CLOSET IN THIS HOUR on our planet!

    I tried to get a lawyer to TAKE A STAND REGARDING THE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE DEBATE AND I CALLED LOTS OF CHURCHES IN BRANDON AND WPG. to ask them for help but I GOT NO RESPONSE AT ALL and I didn’t want to have to foot the lawyer bill all alone.

    I CALLED TONS OF MP’s and MLA’S and I even went and protested ALL ALONE at the Legislative Buildings in Wpg. The media came, there was an incredible snowstorm that day and our bus THAT WAS PLANNED TO COME AND STAND UP FOR MARRIAGE didn’t even want to TAKE THE RISK of travelling on the roads.

    I was so full of what I believed to be RIGHTEOUS ANGER that I made the trip alone and I stood there ALL ALONE, BEFORE MY GOD and I took a single, personal stand ANYWAY.

    The Winnipeg Free Press and the Winnipeg Sun have those pictures of me but they DID NOT PRINT THEM BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAD AN AGENDA and ONE PERSON STANDING ALONE, I GUESS IS NOT PRINT WORTHY ENOUGH.

    Some think that I am perhaps a maverick but we are ALL only going to go around ONCE in this life and IF we want our lives to COUNT FOR SOMETHING, on this planet, for the glory of God, I believe that we need to start TAKING A STAND.

    My brother, Laurie Boschman, USED to play for your Wpg. Jets hockey team. He is also a Christian, as is my ENTIRE family. We were ALL raised in the Roman Catholic faith. Laurie now works for Hockey Ministries International and he reaches kids all over North America, with the gospel of Jesus, by giving them Christian hockey camp experiences.

    Please talk OVER WITH YOUR AWESOME PASTOR MARK and see IF coming to Brandon for a couple of weekends and ROCKING OUR CORNER OF THE WORLD, and the evanglization of our Westman region, would be fitting in with Pastor Mark’s plan for your church.

    I have attempted to contact LEADERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD in VARIOUS DISCIPLINES, various fields, jobs. I have contacted political leaders, you name it, with the hopes of REALLY making a positive IMPACT for this region of the planet, for the GLORY of God.

    I am still struggling with UNFORGIVENESS and letting go of that whole thing that I wrote about earlier. I just think that we should ALL start being WAY MORE ACCOUNTABLE for our actions and ESPECIALLY IF WE PROFESS TO BE CHRISTIANS.

    I think about what David went through and Joseph and ANYBODY ELSE in the Bible who TRIED to do something GOOD FOR GOD.

    I REALLY want to see 2 Chronicles 7:14 for our planet, start to take root in Canada. Afterall, we are a nation founded upon Christian principles. “If my people WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, (that’s us believers), will HUMBLE THEMSELVES AND PRAY AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, I will hear from Heaven, I will forgive their sins and I WILL HEAL THEIR LAND.”

    Did you know that Louis Riel, the founder of our province, CHANGED OUR NAME FROM ASSINIBOIA TO MANITOBA BECAUSE MANITOBA MEANS, “THE GOD THAT SPEAKS?”

    Louis Riel also envisioned that, “one day Manitoba will be the epicentre of religious life within the nation.” Isn’t that cool?

    I read this in some historical books on Louis Riel and his vision for our province. Louis Riel was VERY Roman Catholic.

    I’ll leave this with your Pastor to see what he believes God’s will is for your church and IF this might involve visiting our fair city this fall, with an AWESOME SERVICE and OUTREACH plans for our community for a weekend or so throughout the year.

    Please pray for me, if you wouldn’t mind.

    God bless you all! My particulars are as follows: Deborah Boschman, 520-14th Street, Brandon, Manitoba. R7A 4T8 1-204-727-5230, deborahboschman@yahoo.com or boschy_05@hotmail.com.

  35. Isaac says:

    When it first became a battle in parliment I was all gung-ho about stopping same-sex marriage from being passed. But my perspective has changed over the years since. I didn’t have a chance to read everyone’s posts as it would take far too long, but from what I picked up by skimming, one aspect of the discussion seems to have been missed.

    Is same-sex marriage, marriage at all? If I understand God’s plan for marriage it is a convenant between God a Man and a Woman. If Legal marriage doesn’t involve God is it marriage in God’s eyes, or only a human contract? Either way Jesus still loves them and wants what’s best for them.

    I’d rather see same-sex marriage end in Canada not because it’s been legally enforced by the government, but because no one is choosing to have same-sex marriages because they love God and want to obey His will. It would be great to see the effort and money put into this fight instead be put into evangelism, workplace ministries, and acts of kindness like Love Winnipeg or Adopt-a-block.

    Dios Te Bendiga (God Bless you in spanish).

    P.s. Buy Ice Cream to support Phil & Sophie being missionaries in Mexico this weekend!

  36. gls says:

    RE: Same sex marriage.

    Why does the gay community have to attack the sacrament of marriage?
    The way I see it is there’s an attack on the fundamental beliefs of the Christian Church. It’s not the the homosexual issue, the attack has come from all sides.
    Eg. How about Christmas, Easter or Thanksgiving? Non Christians “celebrate” these days as holidays without the respect and adoration that the Christian Church celebrates them. This is hyprocritical. Why would you celebrate something you don’t believe in? I’m so tired of non believers changing the names and practises of OUR most precious beliefs. This is just an example of how we as The Body Of Christ are being gradually manipulated into accepting other views and practises.
    Now back to the homosexual issue. The Christian Church, and I mean the TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH should either be proud of standing up for the truth of God’s holy sacrament or hang our heads in shame that we stand by and say nothing. Ignorance is not an excuse. Silence cannot be tolerated. This idea that some of the mainstream liberal churches share, that marriage is a right for all, is not just unbiblical but in my view demonic. We are battling for the right of OUR definition of marriage…….the true definition of marriage. Man and woman. Since marriage comes from God, it belongs to those who accept His standards. It’s just a bad game, if it goes by another name.
    I have the all the love and respect for those who practise homosexuality. We are all sinners and need redemption. If same sex partners want to co-exist in the community, call your practise something else and don’t destroy one of the most sacred and pure vows that is taken before my God.

  37. todd says:

    The real problem is politics. If we had actual democracy in Canada- including referendums – most of these political concessions would not have succeeded. I’m tired of our elected officials telling us what Canadians want or don’t want – when they don’t even ask us. When they employ that line, my wife and I look at each other and say – “it’s exactly the opposite – how can they be allowed to pretend to speak for us”. That’s the height of political audacity and we’ve tolerated it long enough. What we need is a new political system. I remember the day in 1989 when I went to a Reform Party nomination meeting at a south Winnipeg hotel. In walked one of the potential runners and he sat right beside me in the front row. I became enthused with the potential of this new party that had a fresh vision for Canadian politics. I was disappointed when I later learned that the powerful speaker and presence beside me chose to follow a path other than politics. Some years later I paid my first visit to the Church of the Rock on Pembina Hwy. Wow. That’s Mark Hughes. For a few years I couldn’t help but wonder how much he could have done for that new political movement. Years later, as a semi-regular attendee, I now recognize that he’s working on the front lines and causing real and meaningful change. My life has been blessed in so many ways since I started attending CotR. Now I see the whole thing as coming thisclose to losing a great Pastor to the cheap game of politics. It’s people we need to change first – politics will follow.

  38. Jennifer says:

    For another viewpoint on homosexuality and Christianity take a look at what Janet Boynes has to say:
    http://www.janetboynesministries.com/

  39. SteveK says:

    Wow, Great Blog, a lot of great points being made here. I’m learning a lot. I’m a very opinionated person but I would also never force them on anyone and I’m always open to change them. Therefore, I can say that having never practiced Homosexuality, I’m not qualified to say if it’s a good or healthy lifestyle but I have been practicing Christianity for most of my life so I can say that I know for sure God’s against it. I’ve also practiced being a husband and father for 20 years (this week) so I can say that personally don’t support the inclusion of “Gay” in any form of marriage, (I don’t even support Common Law marriage) NOT because I think I’m right (I wouldn’t argue with you don’t agree) but because God, through his word is telling us.
    I’ve also never practiced Biology/Science so I may be wrong but Science and homosexuals say that it’s natural, they’re born that way, it may be hereditary and it seems to be confirmed with the recent discovery of a “G” gene.
    Is it me? Are there other’s who think that if this was Nature’s plan that Homosexuals wouldn’t last more than 1 generation? Isn’t it “Nature’s plan” that Sex be for procreation? Only Man and Dolphin’s (I’ve heard) have Sex for pleasure. I know we see Homosexual behaviour in animals, but a lot (not all) is due to the lack of mate’s and since Sex is a natural urge they don’t know any better, should we?

    I’m not the kind of person to judge others. If I was in the crowd when Jesus was asking for someone without sin to throw the first stone, I would have walked out to be stoned.
    I think God’s will in this issue has 2 parts. First it’s his will that we don’t condemn them but if given the opportunity inform them of where God stands on the issue and what the consequences are.
    Second, I think that after they’re informed, it’s God’s will that they, not us decide if it’s something they want to believe or not. God respects thier right to decide for themselves and so should we.

    P.S. This is also my opinion of course but Pastor Mark, I always thought that blogs are for discussions/arguments. And, since this is your blog and you initiated this discussion, it’s sort of ironic that it makes you, a Pastor, a devil’s advocate on a Christian blog :)

  40. Denis says:

    Has anyone of these so called liberals seen a gay parade not only is it immoral and distasteful it looks absolutly stupid!!
    An anus is an exit not an entry!
    WAKE UP PEOPLE!
    HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG! PERIOD!

  41. Julius says:

    Pastor Mark . Your Bible teaching sermons is exactly what our Lord meant when he commmanded the diciplies to preach the Word to All the World.I pray that your ministry will continue to touch and save lives. I myslf attend a bible teaching / misssional church here in Toronto that has so much similarities to Church Of The Rock.
    As for same sex marriage ,we must let these individuals know that if they consider themselves Christians they are being deceitful .You cant be a Christian and continue living in sin,without acknowledgeing it .The same however is true for the Adulterer,Bigamist,etc .For the non christians I pray that we can bring them to a full understanding of God’s word that CONDEMS this type of living.

  42. Steve says:

    I’m trying to figure out , are these people supporting gay marriage even Christians? It’s beyond me why these people even come to church. It must be for the fuzzy feeling they get inside, because they aren’t there to listen to God’s word.
    “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9. If this is true and it is because God’s word says so, then people who support gay marriage and call themselves Christians are not looking to the word of God and have deceived themselves. The Bible clearly states homosexuality as a sin, in the old testament and the new testament.
    You might not like everything the Bible says but God gave us His law for our own benefit. If we condone what the Bible condemns we’re in for some big trouble.
    I’d say you weren’t doing your job Pastor Mark if people like this agreed with you. Keep up the great work!

  43. todd says:

    As clear as the issue is in my present opinion/belief – it becomes a difficult issue for me when I imagine that my own young son or daughter turned out to be gay. I would hate for them to be alienated in any way. I think this “imagining” is where so many people are torn on the issue of homosexuality in general. Presently I consider it to be a genetic thing that one day can be recognized and corrected.

  44. Jim LeBlanc says:

    It is NOT genetic. People are made in God’s image, God is not gay and therefore people are NOT made gay!!
    We did NOT evolve from monkeys we are made in God’s image, God is NOT a monkey and therefore either are we!!
    We are his crowning creation. Man is a representation of His strength and Woman is a representation of His beauty.
    Together, man & woman, they come together to be one flesh.
    This is the proper order of life. God has designed it! If a person professes to be a Christian they should at least take the time to understand the basic biological functions that was put in place by an all knowing , all loving Creator!!
    God is a mastermind, He does not make mistakes!! Nor does he make people gay, they have chosen that lifestyle and that lifestyle is not in accordance with the Almighty’s design!!
    Come on people read your BIBLE!

  45. todd says:

    Jim that is an overly simplistic view and it will fail you more often than serve you. My neighbours just had a baby that has a hole in its heart. It was repaired by surgeons and all looks good.
    We are certainly evolving and that fact doesn’t have to fly in the the face of the bible. I know two couples that in the same year had a 3 finger baby and the other a six finger baby. Humans are evolving/devolving at an alarming rate. We are more suseptable to all things – now that we’ve been weakened with environment, faux-food, chemicals etc. Devolving/weakening is the same thing as evolving – we are changing. Homosexuality has biological markers (genes) and one day those can and will be manipulated.

  46. Jim LeBlanc says:

    The true “person” of any human being is his Spirit. The body is an “Earth Suit” that is required for life on this planet. This “Earth Suit” is susceptible to environmental factors and biological influences that breakdown or change the body in numerous ways. The fact remains that the Spirit is in charge of the body. The body goes where the mind guides as directed by the Spirit. If the Spirit is connected to the Holy Spirit it is led into all truth. If the Spirit is led by any other spirit it will be led into deception and away from truth.The Holy Spririt leads us to God and His design NOT to science and its attempt to explain design. The Bible tells us to have Faith in God, NOT try to have Faith in God, but to have Faith in God. It does not say have faith in science or in mans feeble attempt to expalin the design.
    Life in this fallen world does have numerous challenges that would lead us to believe that it is impossible for there to be a God that is ever present, waiting to be invited into our circumstances helping us to grow and expand to understand others so that compassion and love may abound. But to believe that we are a product of our environment because of physical challenges, takes away from the higher level of life that is to be lived in the Spiritual realm. The Bible tells us that those things which are seen (Physical) are temporary, but those things which are unseen (Spiritual) are eternal. We need to live this life in view of eternity as well as by Gods Word if we are to ever overcome this life. Romans 8: 5-6 “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritual minded is life and peace”
    Fact remains people are made in the image of God and since God is first and foremost a Spirit Being than we also are to be first and foremost a Spirit Being. We live on earth in a body which is why when Jesus came to earth he required a body to be presnt on this earth. Since we were made in His image and we posses a human body He too choose a human body and not that of a animal or if I may, a Snake.
    If we are led by the body we get into trouble, if we are led by the Spirit we are led into all truth and we are called Sons on God.

  47. todd says:

    Jim if people (and their Earth-suits) didn’t have hormones then there would be little if any procreation going on. Those “followers” are led by more than the teachings of the Bible. Same goes for homosexuals except the wires are crossed. Nothing wrong with exploring the possibility that corrections can be discovered. Most gay people do not want to be gay – they just are. I can tell you that I had a brain tumour which caused testosterone to be defeated (to zero). Without medical intervention I can say with certainty that I would otherwise not have a wife and two children. Your hard line on science and spirit just doesn’t cut it with me Jim I’m sorry.

  48. Jim LeBlanc says:

    Todd,

    How long does your body live?

    How long does your Spirit live?

    I am not saying and have not said that there is no room for medical intervention in the bodies that carry us through life. What I have said is that we are more than our bodies or the hormones that make up the body.

    So the recovery of your health is completely and whole the doing of medical intervention? There was nobody praying for you? God did not have this Miracle take place so that you may glorify Him and tell others of His goodness?

    At the end of one of your posts you say to trust no one except God and His house. However, you seem to be in defence of people who choose to live a life that is in direct opposition to what God has clearly stated in His word as to how life is to be lived.

    As for my hard line, I beleive that we as Christian people need to be a little more hard line as the Bible tells us that “from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of God has suffered violence and the violent take it by force”(Matthew 11:12). And if my stace is too black and white I believe we also need to be a little more black and white as well since Jesus himself stated “Either you are with me or you are against me” (Matthew 12:30). Seems like a pretty black and white statement if you ask me.

    Anyway, I am for the sanctity of the marriage relationship and all that it was intended to be. I do not believe that it is a relationship for any other peoples accept those that believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It is first and foremost a Spiritual relationship, a covenant between One God, One Man and One Woman. It was designed by God to Spiritually mature each person and to give each person a better understanding of love through a horizontal relationship (man to woman) as opposed to only a vertical relationship (man/woman to God). As I stated in my first post, “Being designed by God, the institution of marriage is therefore exclusive to those who believe and acknowlede God as Creator and Lord”.
    As for the gay community, we love them as Jesus does, however, the marriage relationship is not representative of their belief and lifestyle.

  49. todd says:

    Hi Jim. I agree with pretty much all that you write and yes I do believe in the power of prayer and miracles. I’ve had more than a few of my own. To use my own example again – prayer may have led me to the discovery but medicine corrected it. They don’t have to be autonomous.
    Yes, I wrote trust no one except God and his house. The context was politics however it applies to everything. I’m not defending homosexuality – I’m attempting to understand it and I’ve never said it was proper – quite the opposite.
    Let me sum it up by saying that I don’t have faith in the medical industry however my faith directed me to precisely what needed correction. I went there and told them what to look for – and there it was to everyone’s surprise but mine. Not being a surgeon – I needed some assistance.
    How does your position reconcile with the transgendered population who are following their spirit and engage the process of reasigning their “earth-suit”? Those people are homosexuals by definition. I think the issue is clearly one of genetics and it will one day be fixable. In the meantime, we shouldn’t be bastardizing the sanctity of the marriage union by accomodating homosexuality – I agree with that.

  50. Jim LeBlanc says:

    Hello Todd,

    We are reconciled to God through Christ when we acknowledge our position as sinners and allow His Spirit to connect with our Spirit in order to renew us or have us become “Born Again”. By this token I can see us all as a work in progress. However, to never confess your staus as a sinner leaves one in a position of eternal separation from God and the One true power that is able to change the “who” you are. So for those people that you state are homosexual by birth, genetics or definition we as people of light need to live our life in such away as to be an available source for them to see the powerful transformation we have been through in this journey called Christianity.
    If they are gay and truly do not want to be then if we hold the answer to the change they desire then is it not up to us to provide the “good news” to them in a loving and unconditional, non-judgemental way so that they too can enjoy the freedom in Christ that we as Christian so richly enjoy everyday?

  51. Matthew Klassen says:

    I do not feel I am capable of leaving a reply regarding genetics, etc. However, I can say with certainty that those of us who feel no such desire to have sexual relations with members of our own gender or have our God-given physical signs of gender altered are under attack. The fact that Carrie Prejean was recently stripped of her crown without remorse by the powers that be is startling evidence of this. Did I miss something when they played her controversial statement on TV? You would think she had slandered the gay population in the most hateful means possible to be given such harsh treatment. Didn’t she just state what her opinion was on the matter? Whoever says we’re living in a free country or a democracy should really look into what freedom and democracy mean.

  52. Re: Same-sex marriage, abortion, EVERYTHING…………..

    Yes, Matthew, you are SO RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Our bible says that, “Jesus came in as a lamb.” but our bible also states towards the end in Revelation, perhaps, “That He is coming back as a LION from the tribe of Judah, WITH FIRE IN HIS EYES, to judge and rule the nations.”

    This is a VERY DIFFERENT JESUS who is coming back!

    I believe in my spirit, that God is calling forth LION-HEARTED BELIEVERS in these last days. BOLD believers, who WILL TAKE A STAND AND SPEAK UP for the truth, NO MATTER WHAT.

    I REALLY feel that it is HIGH TIME that we, the REAL church, the body of believers, start ACTING like the church.

    IF we are SUPPOSE to be the ARMY of God, man, we are WIMPS!

    I REALLY feel that God is calling us to move from WIMP to WARRIOR mode.

    I have spoken to older people from our churches and they say, “Well, no, we are suppose to act like God in EVERY way.”

    Well, what about RIGHTEOUS ANGER?

    I mean, what did Jesus do when he saw his temple being defiled? Well, scripture says He overturned their tables and basically kicked them out.

    We live in a nation FOUNDED UPON Christian principles and yet, we have allowed EVERYONE to come into our nation and we have ACCOMMODATED for everyone who MIGHT be the least bit OFFENDED by our rules and laws.

    Just think about Iran for a minute. Try going over there and saying to them that their Qur’an OFFENDS you and that you want it REMOVED from their schools.

    Try going over there and saying to them, well, YOUR RELIGION offends me.

    People have repeatedly come into OUR nation and done this to us and WE HAVE VERY OBLIGING ACCOMMODATED their EVERY WHIMPER AND DESIRE.

    The founding Christian principles upon which our nation was founded is in fact what DRAWS most of these people to our country.

    IF it was SO GREAT in their nation or country, they would have stayed there and we WELCOME EVERYONE with open arms and that’s great and we embrace ALL peoples who immigrate to our nation.

    BUT, WHAT DO WE STAND FOR ANYMORE?

    There is a saying that says, “IF YOU DON’T STAND FOR SOMETHING, YOU’LL STAND FOR ANYTHING.”

    I think that this is where we are right now in our nation, and I desperately think that our attitude and our mentality AS A NATION needs to RADICALLY change.

    I think that we need to GO BACK TO THE PRINCIPLES OF OUR FOREFATHERS in SO MANY DIFFERENT ways; in ALL areas of our society.

    I think that THIS is where PART of the problem stems with ALL of these issues.

    Heck, we just seem to NOT want to OFFEND anybody anymore.

    We have become SO LUKEWARM, that we are NOT even a FORMIDABLE FORCE to be reckoned with anymore. We seem to be NOTHING.

    IF someone wants something, heck, we just GIVE it to them, no questions asked, nothing, because we are just so busy trying to be like God.

    Am I WAY off base here?

    Does ANYBODY ELSE out there FEEL THIS SAME BURNING IN THEIR SPIRIT that it is TIME TO RISE UP AND TAKE OUR RIGHTFUL PLACE AS THE HEAD AND NOT THE TAIL IN OUR NATION?

    Look at the BEATING that some issues are taking and what do the majority of us Christians do about it? Usually, it seems, NOTHING. We just pray in our churches about these issues.

    I mean WHEN DO THINGS GET PERSONAL FOR US ANYMORE? When is it time to say, “Okay, enough is enough already.” We need to finally STAND UP and take a stand on some of these issues? This is just NOT OKAY.

    We take beating after beating after beating and STILL we seem to DO NOTHING en masse as the believers in Canada.

    I mean, we KNOW who wins in the end, but I know that some non-Christians have even told me, heck, IF the CHURCH doesn’t even get upset about things anymore, I GUESS it’s all okay.

    I think that we might be doing a GREAT DISSERVICE to all of the non-Christians out there via our COMPLETE COMPLACENCY on EVERY issue.

    Am I off base here? What do you think?

  53. Oops! I guess the correct saying is, “If you don’t stand for SOMETHING, you’ll FALL for anything.”

    My apologies, a typo.

  54. todd says:

    Deborah you are on base – not off. The sad part is we are almost alone on that base. I mean the standing up for ourselves part, and screaming that “we have had enough and are not going to take it anymore”. I’ve been waiting years for that movement to start. Fortunately I think it is now happening. I sense that the powers that be know they can’t push anymore of our buttons. It’s going to take a politician like Schartzenegger to overturn things gay-marriage in their regions – like he recently did. SOmebody brought up a good point here – that gal that lost the Miss America pageant for her great answer on gay marriage. How disgraceful that political/media power has come to that. Her answer gained more applause than it did boo’s. Just watch the clip on Youtube. But the gay activist (and much of the media) reported that her answer was met with boo’s. We have to start having some demonstrations of our own. And soon.

  55. Tamara says:

    I’m trying not to ‘jump in’ on this one, but… well, you can see how that’s going. I don’t disagree about the church needing to exercise its voice, and we as Christians needing to be willing to put our necks on the line and speak the truth and lobby for change… or no change… or whatever it be. I would prefer to rewind the clock back to the time when I could simply say to my little children, ‘No, you can’t marry so-and- so… girls don’t marry GIRLS, girls marry BOYS.’ It’s easier, cleaner, the conversation is short. I wonder sometimes, however, if we aren’t very close to the place Israel was when Jesus came to live and walk among them… are we looking for Him to be a different kind of saviour than He is? Are we looking to blot out the sin from our midst, so intent on being a pure and righteous people, that we are missing the point… missing His heart? You can legislate morality, but you cannot legislate righteousness. Those who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery were convinced that they were doing the righteous thing, but they were not. They were doing the ‘Biblical’ thing, but it was not the righteous thing.

    I would like to live in a world where lying was against the law, but I don’t. I would like to live in a society where it was illegal to be greedy, but there is no place on this earth like that. We say homosexuality is sin like every other sin, but where is the voice of the church with regard to heterosexual common-law marriage? Why are we not cringing in horror from all the premarital teenage sex, and all the broken marriage vows? Do these not grieve the heart of God? We know they do. Are they more ‘understandable’ to us who don’t struggle with homosexuality, and therefore more forgivable to us? They are not more or less forgivable to God. They are not somehow ‘closer’ to righteousness.

    I am not speaking about political correctness… I am not saying we should not speak the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. Of course we should. God says homosexuality is sin, and so I accept His word on that. What is His heart? What is the mind of Christ? What was it that Jesus offered to the woman at the well, that we are not offering to the homosexual ‘community’? When He spoke to people, their lives were changed. It was intimate, personal, soul-changing… life change from the inside out. It seems our concern so often is simply to get gay people to stop being gay.

    I love that Mark speaks the truth, and I wish we all had the courage and the boldness to do it. But he ALWAYS does this in the context of a profound confidence in the power of God who is mighty to transform, to heal, to forgive, to save. I do wonder, for us as the church, if we have somehow missed that step somewhere. We do not have faith in the power of the Holy Spirit, to convict and to change people’s lives. We do not have confidence in Him, as we should. Why do I want gay marriage to be illegal? Do I simply feel safer if I can say I live in a Christian nation that looks like what I think it should look like, and legislates what I think it should legislate? And is that ultimately what God is really pleased with? I don’t know, but I suspect not, based on what He says and who He shows Himself to be in the Bible. God desires us to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with Him. Do we have God’s desires foremost in our hearts? Do we want people to stop having gay sex, or do we want people to meet and know and love the God who saves and heals and forgives and redeems and restores? We have the power and the obligation to speak the truth, but we cannot be the Holy Spirit for anyone… we do not have the power to convict the soul of its sin.

    For me it kind of falls along the same lines as ‘God loves a cheerful giver’. If you can’t be cheerful about it, should you not give? Of course not… give anyway, and change your attitude. Should we stop fighting for marriage to be defined as a union between a man and a woman? No.. but while we do this, we as the church need to guard our hearts so that we are not guilty of the sin of only desiring the appearance of righteousness, and missing the heart of God. If we miss His heart, then what’s the point?

  56. Great points Tamara! You have caused me to think and to reflect. What you have stated is SO TRUE!

    This kind of reminds me of the log in the eye analogy from the Bible.

  57. Tamara says:

    I would also like to say in response to an earlier comment, that after 14 years of being married, I find that sharing a bed and having children together are only a PART of the sacred mystery that is a marriage. There is truly something mystical that happens in a person, when you are joined together with someone by God. Growing together with someone, covenanting yourself to them, loving each other, forgiving each other, living your separate lives together as one, and growing in God with that person at your side to encourage you, strengthen you, accept you, exhort you to higher things… It is the most profoundly spiritual experience. Marriage is something so sacred, designed by God to be expressive of Christ’s passionate, selfless, covenanted love relationship with His church, and I don’t know if there is anything in the history of the world that we have so misunderstood, defiled or dismissed. Pastor Mark, I would be grateful to read what you would have to say about that in a future blog… the ‘what, why, ‘what for’ of marriage?’ In a culture where gay people seem to increasingly be the only ones who even want to get married, it seems to me that it’s an important part of the conversation.

  58. Tamara, have you EVER thought of writing your thoughts, comments in a book or a Journal and/or publishing them?

    WOW! I TRULY think that you have an AMAZINGLY AWESOME GIFT of being able to express yourself with BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL comments!

    WOW! I am truly BLOWN AWAY with your BEAUTIFULLY EXPRESSIVE thoughts and words!

    You CAN REALLY WRITE and express yourself so BEAUTIFULLY!

    WOW! What an HONOR and a PRIVILEDGE to be able to read this!

  59. Tamara says:

    Lol, that’s very kind. Mostly I just struggle with knowing when to be quiet.

  60. Steve says:

    I would like to say that I think people are probably born with possible gay tendencies. I also think that people are born with the tendency to hate, to lust, to lie, to steal, to kill, to dishonor their parents etc. It is called our fallen nature. This doesn’t mean because we struggle with a certain sin that we should allow that sin to rule our lives. If living as a homosexual is alright, then we can list a whole bunch of other sins that should be alright as well. Who gives us the right to choose which sin is OK and which ones aren’t? God has already given us His laws and He saved us from our sins. How can we sit here debating whether this is alright or not. We need to love sinners but not agree that what they are doing is right. It isn’t going to benefit a gay person if you tell him or her that they can get into heaven living that lifestyle. God’s ways are so much better than our ways.

  61. todd says:

    Steve that’s a terrific perspective. However are you saying that Christians should not oppose the bastardization of “marriage” and just be satisfied with “not being in agreement” with what is occuring?

  62. Steve says:

    I’d say yes, we should fight the bastardization of marriage. How do we go about doing that? Well for starters, I believe we need to not only preach against gay marriage, but how about we preach against sexual immorality in the church. How can we say anything to people out there in the world when our churches have the exact same divorce rate as the people not going to church.
    People in the church have alot to say about the sins of the world but alot of them are not willing to look at most of their own sins. I guarantee that pornography in the church is almost equal to the world. I think our biggest weapon against the world is to look at ourselves and see why we are so inneffective when we say anything. Could it be that we are more insulted by the world than we are about our own mess. Maybe when we clean up our own mess the world will look at us and see something that they need.
    I’m not saying the world is OK, I’m just saying they won’t listen to us if we are holding on to our own sins and not allowing God to renew us fully. I know this because God has showed me what a hypocrite I am in places. I thought other people were such hypocrites and expected them to change somehow, but God wanted me to change first. I believe He desires the same from the church.

  63. RJ says:

    I have read much of what many feel they need to express as is our human desire , but there is only one answer and this is it.
    2 Chronicles 7:14 (New King James Version)
    14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
    I myself have opinions but they really don’t count for much. I (in self)must stand defeated if I want our Lord to kick in.

  64. ELSE says:

    HI MARK I WATCH YOU EVERY SUNDAY

    DONT EVER CHANGE YOU ARE A BREATHE OF FRESH AIR

    GO MARK GO ELSE

  65. Kieran says:

    Pastor Mark,

    When speaking of argument in it’s proper context, where you state that it is a cheap tactic (an also the fallacy of ad hominem) to belittle your opponent or paint them as a bigot and the like, do not follow up with another fallacy (an appeal to tradition). If you truly want to have a good argument, both of you need to strip away your perspective biases, try not to be fallacious and argue on logic alone.

    To that, you may say, but this is just my opinion, or, faith trumps logic. If that is indeed your position, then please disregard my previous paragraph, because neither party will ever see eye to eye, and it will cause more strife for each group to continue to argue. The right to free speech is only right until someone wrongs someone else. Just remember that when you preach, the greatest lesson you can ever teach your congregation is to do no harm. More good can come of that, and more wrongs and injustices will be solved through kindness than anything else.

    Sincerely,
    A Loving Atheist.

  66. Jim LeBlanc says:

    It is great to be kind but you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight!
    If there is a great injustice taking place, like say the attack on the first insititution created by God for the betterment of people and representation of Christ and His love for the Church, then those His followers must stand up and fight instead of trying to placate everyone invovled.
    I said it before and I will say it again “Being designed by God, the institution of marriage is therefore exclusive to those who believe and acknowlede God as Creator and Lord”.
    If this is not the choice that a person makes why would they, other than the financial implications, be interested in an institution that represents Christ when they chose not to do so with their lives?

  67. Mark Hughes says:

    Kieran
    Every culture, and every religion, and every people group, in every corner of creation, throughout all of time has defined marriage as the union between a man and a woman. 6000 years of humanity is hardly the fallacy of appealing to tradition.

  68. Steve, RJ and of course, Pastor Mark, you are right on the money! It appears to be so much easier to look at the sins of everyone else in the world without looking at the logs in each of our own eyes.

    Sin is sin to God and it is all equal, is it not?

    You are right on the money when you talk about the statistics between the church and the world, and in almost all areas, be it divorce, premarital sex, etc. the statistics are almost the same! I was VERY SURPRISED to learn this!

    We had a pregnancy pro-life administrator come to our church two Sundays ago and she spoke of how many Christian girls come in to see them to seek assistance because they too want an abortion!

    This was a REAL shock and an eye-opener for me! I went up to the speaker afterwards to speak with her and she said that they feel that this is their new mission field now; to try to reach out to all of these aching young people in our churches who are dysfunctional, hurting and in pain. I ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT BELIEVE WHAT I WAS HEARING!

    Have we failed this MISERABLY in our churches? WHAT’S GOING ON HERE?

    I thought to myself, am I this naieve? HOW could this be?

    I think that we HAD BETTER WAKE UP IN OUR CHURCHES and QUITE QUICKLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It appears that as humans, it seems to make us feel so much more comfortable in our own sins, to mistakenly believe that all the bad sinners are in the world and shame on them, those misguided individuals; ESPECIALLY the homosexual community, which we target and refer to again and again and again.

    Perhaps this is Satan’s absolute ploy and tool. How smart! Get the churches all bent out of shape about one group of obvious sinners, according to the Bible, and off course about THE REAL SYMPTOMS AND SINS and what is eroding our VERY OWN churches themselves, FROM WITHIN.

    Well, we had better ALL look deep within ourselves and within our own churches and take a CLOSER look. Some of our churches are A REAL MESS WITHIN.

    Alot of the things that are going on in the world are ALSO GOING ON EXACTLY THE SAME, IN OUR VERY OWN CHURCHES! The politics, the cliques, the boys’ clubs, the nonsense. How ARE WE INCREASINGLY ANY DIFFERENT from the world?

    I think that we need a HUGE WAKE UP, SHAKE UP CALL FROM DEEP WITHIN our churches before we can effectively do MANY things for God in the world.

    What Steve has said is SO TRUE THAT IT IS UNBELIEVEABLE!

    We are living a fallacy if we believe any differently than this.

    The world will tell you who is a fake and who isn’t, who is real and who is putting on a show.

    Like Steve and RJ stated earlier, we had better TAKE HEED in our own churches and WAKE UP REAL SOON because I deeply believe also that 2 Chronicles 7:14 is what is needed VERY DESPERATELY within our church bodies BEFORE we will be ANY GOOD or have ANY REAL LASTING EFFECT in the world.

    Perhaps your church could lead a Conference to call us all towards 2 Chronicles 7:14. What do you think?

    I wish I could email to all of you this MOST WONDERFUL EMAIL I just recently received about some red marbles. Basically, it stated that it is NOT WHAT WE SAVE, HOARD AND HOLD ONTO but WHAT WE SCATTER into the lives of others that will be our lasting legacy.

    I think about what the Bible states that, “You will know them by their fruits.”

    This is what I am going to try to focus on now within my life. I want to TRY to leave some good fruit behind as my legacy of having lived on this planet.

    Let’s see how much good we can do, for the glory of God, in each of our communities; to be a blessing, encouragement and real help to others.

    Like Steve and RJ stated, the world knows the REAL DEAL when they see it. They know who is talking the talk and who is REALLY trying anyway, to WALK THE WALK.

    Hey, let’s REALLY try to WALK THE WALK! What do you think?

  69. I went back to my Red Marble email and I want to share with all of you some of it’s quotes:

    “We will not be remembered by our words, but by our kind deeds. Life is not measured by the breaths that we take, but by the moments that take our breath away………….”

    “Today I wish you a day of ordinary miracles- A fresh pot of coffee you didn’t make yourself…….An unexpected phone call from an old friend……Green stoplights on your way to work………The fastest line at the grocery store……..A good sing-along song on the radio…….Your keys found right where you left them.”

    “Think of all of the people that you have met that you’ll never forget.”

    “Always remember that it’s not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!!!!!!!!!!”

    “Have a Great Day everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!”

  70. Steve says:

    I would like to speak to the loving atheist. I would also like to speak to your conscience. You don’t believe there’s a God, so I would like to ask you a few questions.
    Do you think you are a good person? If you do then I would like to ask another. Have you ever lied? If you have then you have broken one of the ten commandments. Have you ever stolen anything? No matter how small or insignifigant it doesn’t matter, if you’ve still stolen something in your life you are guilty of breaking another commandment. Have you ever had lustful thoughts about anyone? Jesus said that if you look in lust you are guilty of commiting adultery with that person in your heart. Have you ever blasphemed God’s holy name or used His name to express disgust? If you have then you have broken another commandment?Have you ever dishonored your parents? If you have then you have broken yet another commandment. I can go on but I think you get the point.
    If you answered yes to any of these questions then in God’s eyes you are not a good person.
    Now let me ask another question. If God exists and you die. You’re standing before Him on judgement day. Are you innocent or guilty? If you’re honest you will say guilty. Will you go to heaven or hell? God’s standard is perfection so you will go to hell. You say “but I only did those things before and stopped doing them”. It doesn’t matter. If someone commits murder and they say to the judge”I used to murder but I stopped doing that,” the judge will throw them away. So when you are judged guilty God will have no choice but to throw you into hell.
    So I’m doomed you say! No! God gave you a way out! Jesus came and died so that you’re sins would be payed for. The penalty for sin is death so something had to die in order to pay for your sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for your sins. If you believe in Him and turn from your sin you will be saved. You will inherit eternal life and go to be with your Lord in paradise forever. If we reject Christ it says we will go into eternal darkness and despair.
    I hope this spoke to your conscience and that you will see that you are in need of a savior.

  71. Tamara says:

    I have been thinking alot about ‘love’, and about what we think that is supposed to mean. We say things like, ‘let’s just love each other’, as if that is interchangable with ‘be nice’, ‘let’s just get along’, ‘let’s not fight’ or ‘live and let live’. It is not the same thing. The Holy Spirit is not a cuddle bunny. Jesus was not a hippy in a peace t-shirt… he brought frustration to people, he angered them, flipped their lives upside down, rebuked their sin and their unbelief, he thwarted them. He said the things that needed to be said, and sometimes in a not so very ‘nice’ way. I can’t remember the last time somebody called me a ‘brood of vipers’ or a ‘white washed tomb’, but I would almost definately without a doubt have my feelings hurt if it happened. BUT, if it’s TRUE, then wouldn’t I want to know that? If I am being a hyopcrite, if I am all shiny clean on the outside, but dead on the inside, wouldn’t the LOVING thing be for God to tell me that? One of the hardest things to do, for me, is to know just exactly how to speak the Truth, in Love. It’s easy to speak the plain brutal ‘truth’, and it’s easy to just say ‘nice’ things to make people feel warm and accepted and not hurt their feelings… but how to speak the truth in love? I’m still working on that one.

    Having said that, I think it is extremely important that we who are Christians not forget that the people Jesus harshly critisized were the RELIGIOUS people. The ‘good’, spiritually trained, educated, follow the rules, sanctified set-apart religious leaders of God’s chosen people. We KNOW that, why do we keep pretending we don’t know that? How did He treat the ‘unsaved’, the unbelievers and the outcasts of ‘good society’? If I recall, He was kind of fond of having dinner with them. He stepped in between them and a big pile of flying rocks. He saw them, defended them, spoke to them, touched them, called them by their names. He was not desperate, He was not impatient, He was not hurried, He was not offended by them or afraid to be seen with them. It isn’t about tolerating sin, or being non-confrontational and laissez-faire… it’s about recognizing that we do not have the power to convict people of their sin. Jesus loved people, and because He loved them, they loved Him in return. If we want to be ‘Christ-like’, a disciple of Jesus, maybe we could start by ceasing from behaving as though the Holy Spirit were impotent, and we are His only hope?

  72. Steve says:

    Tamara, you say that we don’t have the power to convict people of their sin and yet God has given us the Holy Spirit and His word. If we speak the truth to people and maybe it offends them is that a bad thing? I heard of a man asking someone if they knew where they would go if they died that night, heaven or hell. The man who asked the question was with a friend at the time. The friend became angry at him for saying this to a complete stranger. He went home feeling bad. A few days later the stranger came back and said he couldn’t stop thinking about what he had asked him. He gave his life to the Lord.
    By the way Jesus loved people enough to tell them they were sick. If you had cancer and your doctor came to you and showed you alot of love but didn’t have the heart to tell you you had cancer and were doomed to die if you didn’t take the cure. Would you be happy with that doctor as you lay dying? I think not. Hell is not a pretty place and to think that I wouldn’t have warned somone if I had the chance would make me ashamed of myself.
    Do you listen to alot of Rob Bell by any chance?

  73. Tamara says:

    I don’t know who Rob Bell is. I agree completely with everything you just said. Absolutely, we need to speak the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. I’m pretty sure I said that, and I’m sorry if that didn’t come through clearly. This is why I think it is absolutely imperative that we live our lives under the direction of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus did. If God is telling you to speak, then by all means speak. Obey Him. His word will not return to Him until it as accomplished what He has purposed, right?

  74. Barb says:

    The problem I have when people say “they’re born that way. It’s not a choice” is that it is I have a difficult time believing that God would create someone to sin. Pastor Mark quoted the verses listing the sins and all of them are things people would fall into, not be born with.

  75. Steve says:

    I don’t think anyone is born gay. I just think people are born with evil tendencies. I heard Paul washer say one time that if you don’t think a baby has evil in it. Watch when you tell him no and push his hand away. He gets mad and tries to push your hand back. And if he had the power of a grown male he would beat his own father to the ground walk over his bloody body and grab the toy he wanted. That’s a pretty crazy illustration but I bet it’s true. Anyways it just shows that we are born into evil and have to fight it all of our lives. It is totally a choice to be gay or not.

  76. steve says:

    One more thing. It says in the Bible that our flesh is evil, so when a baby is born it’s born with corrupted flesh. Not because God created it that way but because when Adam sinned we all became sinners along with him so we are born selfish and want our own way right from the get go. Sorry if I made it sound like people were created gay by God. God would never do that.

  77. Steve, you sound like a WARRIOR and I REALLY APPRECIATE your steadfastness along with Pastor Mark’s and ALL of the other comments. WAY TO GO, STEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being rebuked, challenged, reminded of what God’s Word REALLY DOES SAY is all a VERY GOOD THING! I think that it is a very good thing to be able to FREELY debate, speak of and challenge one another along the Christian journey. It is also good for me to dust off some of those brain cells with some truths from the EVERLASTING, UNDENIABLE WORD OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD and it is A VERY GOOD THING for me to be reminded of what His word REALLY is.

    Look at those poor people in Iran now. They challenged the honesty and the integrity of the elections in Iran and they are ALL up on charges now. I think that we should NEVER take for granted the RIGHTS AND PRIVILEDGES that we have enjoyed in our nation and that we should REALLY APPRECIATE THESE, while we still have them. In MANY other countries, you can be KILLED for your faith. There are MANY examples of this around the world. Keep on excercising your democratic right, Christians of Canada!

    I also want you all to know that I wrote the TRUTH about what my former church did to me because it involves the City of Brandon and my former church. They had written comments about me, on the Internet, THAT WERE TOTAL LIES, UNTRUTHS FROM THE PIT OF HELL and I REBUKED those lies with the truth. I want you to know that they must have contacted a lawyer because now they REMOVED these truths from the internet; from my Wikipedia page. If you google my name, you just don’t see those TRUTHS anymore. I JUST responded to the lies that SOMEONE FROM THIS CHURCH by the name of James Rosco had on there about me, for TWO YEARS and within a WEEK, someone removed my TRUTHFUL REBUTTAL of these lies. I NEVER met this young man before. He was told MANY LIES about what REALLY happened when I attended church there and he decided to defend his Pastor and his church by REPEATING THESE UNTRUTHS ABOUT ME ON THE INTERNET for ALL to see.

    We are talking about SERIOUS STRONGHOLDS, WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES, a Free Masonry control and spirit over my hometown of Brandon, Manitoba. There have been SO MANY HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS HERE AGAINST ME THAT I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO ADDRESS THESE.

    My experience is that when you begin to TAKE ON THESE SPIRITUAL FORCES AND THIS WICKEDNESS, IT STIRS UP SOME SERIOUS WARFARE IN THE HEAVENLIES. THIS IS WHAT I FEEL THAT I HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN BATTLING and so please pray HARD for me that I don’t faint. I am trying desperately to fight for the BEST INTERESTS of my entire community but there is a boys’ club group who have BENEFITTED YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR from things remaining the SAME in Brandon.

    This group has CONTROLLED THE KEYS, THE GATES OVER BRANDON FOREVER; THEY HAVE CONSISTENTLY BENEFITTED from holding and excercising POWER AND CONTROL and they don’t want to see anything change and ESPECIALLY a woman challenging them.

    I FEEL THE INCREDIBLE WARFARE everytime I submit a TRUTHFUL letter to the Editor and EVERYTIME I take them on and challenge what they are doing and WHO they are REALLY benefitting. This is REALLY SERIOUS business. You have NO idea. There is ALOT AT STAKE HERE FOR THESE MEN and they will go to ANY HEIGHTS OR DEPTHS TO ANNIHILATE ME, try to control me and THWART any truths that I present to the majority electorate.

    This is an INCREDIBLE BATTLE and I REALLY had NO IDEA until I first began to speak the truth. Now, please remember, this is in Brandon, Manitoba, in Canada. This is NOT Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran or Iraq. I need ALL OF YOUR EARNEST PRAYERS, if you wouldn’t mind. I REALLY do worry about my safety and the safety of my family. I have had HARASSING phone calls from unlisted numbers, a Pastor telling me that, “If I am NOT FOR GOD, THAT I AM AGAINST GOD,” because I challenged the authority of WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON OVER MY CITY.

    Am I wrong to stand up and fight for the BEST INTERESTS OF THE MAJORITY ELECTORATE when I repeatedly see HOW they are getting ripped off? Is this being DISRESPECTFUL OF AUTHORITY? The church is telling me that God has put this man into power. Well, what about Saul and other leaders in the Bible who went OFF COURSE. Please someone, GIVE ME SOME GOOD ADVISE. If we as Christians SEE THE CORRUPTION TAKING PLACE, is it not our DUTY to speak up and take a stand and to fight for THE TRUTH and for God’s will to be accomplished rather than man’s will?

    Please give me whatever truths and guidance you glean from the Bible. IF I am wrong in what I am doing then I will stop. My INTENTION is to fight for the BEST INTERESTS of my City and of the MAJORITY ELECTORATE and NOT for the benefit of a small boys’ club that have CONTROLLED THINGS over my city FOREVER.

    What does Jesus say about this? I STILL respect the position of our Mayor as being the leader over our City, which he is, but I QUESTION AND CHALLENGE THEM ON ALMOST EVERY DECISION THAT THEY MAKE, if I feel that it is NOT in the best interests of our City or of the majority electorate.

    I ASK THEM, IS THIS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL OF US OR IS THIS FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL GAIN, BENEFIT AND EMPOWERMENT?

    What I have done is to take a stand for the MAJORITY of the citizens of my City who DON’T SEEM TO KNOW WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON, DON’T CARE OR WHO HAVE REPEATEDLY TOLD ME, FEEL POWERLESS TO CHANGE ANYTHING.

    I have prayed about this FOR YEARS. DOESN’T GOD STILL USE PEOPLE to accomplish His goals and His purposes? There is NOTHING for me to gain in this but EVERYTHING for my City and our future generations to gain from having excellent, God fearing leadership. I kind of feel like Ralph Nader. Am I wrong here?

  78. Steve says:

    Hello Deborah. I’ve had some rotten experiences with a church that used ungodly control over their congregation. I’m not going to get into it cause it’s not even worth talking about. Anyways I don’t really know your situation so I can’t really comment too much. I do know that freemasons in their higher levels practice witchcraft and sorcery. If people in the church are into that then I wouldn’t put too much stock into what they are saying. Have you ever heard of Wretched radio with Todd Freil. They have a website you can look up. They helped me alot to see what kinds of things that go on in a church are acceptable and which things are completely wrong. They confirmed things for me that never seemed to line up in my mind. I pray God sorts out this whole mess for you.

  79. Thank you Steve. You’re awesome! I’m going to look that up right now. Guess what? I’m out here visiting my brother in Langley, B.C. for holidays and we went to Langley Community Church here for the Sunday service. Lo and behold, they have a Leadership Summit Conference here and 16 men and women FROM AROUND THE WORLD will be coming here to speak about being a leader, relational dynamics in organizations, the future of the church in an increasingly global culture, the gift of leadership in the local church, mercy ministry, church planting, growing people spiritually, eyewitness to power; the essence of leadership, raising money for third world entrepreneurs, management innovation, core competencies; transforming mangement practices in companies, partnering with one of the world’s largest Christain child development agencies with more than 65 denominations and thousands of local churches, in order to serve more than one million children in 24 countries, the first woman to lead a Dow 30 company and was named “The Most Powerful Woman in Business” by Fortune magazine for six years in a row,what makes ideas succeed, the CEO of Uganda’s leading promotions and events management company, which was featured in president Bill Clinton’s 1998 tour of Africa, organizational health and The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Harvard Business School graduate, Stanford Graduate School of Management, etc.

    There are Presidential advisers, chairmans and CEO’s of MAJOR companies, Pastors from VERY LARGE and small churches across the U.S. and BONO from U2 will speak to us via videocast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I feel SO VERY PRIVILEDGED to be able to attend this Conference which begins on Thursday and Friday of this week! August 6-7, 2009.

    Travelling to B.C., of course we prayed the blood of Jesus over our vehicle, over the road, over ourselves, etc. and we WERE involved in an accident after The Enchanted Forest, between Golden and Revelstoke.

    Both the RCMP and the tow truck driver COULD NOT BELIEVE THAT NOONE in our vehicle was hurt, our vehicle was NOT damaged, it did NOT roll over and after 2 hours waiting for a tow truck, we were ALL safely back on the road again!

    We were able to witness to the RCMP officer, the tow truck driver and his boss about how God had protected us!

    At church today in Langley, it was the MOST BEAUTIFUL SERVICE; talking about how we see God in nature and in His Creation and how the evolutionary approach ABSOLUTELY DOESN’T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO FACTS.

    The music was beautiful and we sang songs about how if we as a people won’t praise God, how He will cause the rocks to break open and worship Him and the palm trees, etc.

    Every Sunday here they are looking at God in EVERY area and in each aspect of life; in nature, music, the arts, etc.

    I am SO looking forward to The Leadership Summit which will take place this Thursday and Friday. So far 350 people are registered for this. The cost is $250.00.

    Thank you Steve for replying. I am going to look up that website immediately.

    Never lose your steadfast, strong faith and committment to God. This is an encouragement! Thank you!

  80. Steve says:

    I have to warn you that Todd freil can be kind of sarcastic sometimes and you might not agree with everything he says but there are some very solid things that they talk about that most people don’t even think about. He tends to look at things according to scripture and doesn’t really care if say 90% of churches say this, if it doesn’t line up with scripture he’s going to point it out. Some people don’t like that so I thought I would warn you that he tends to rattle some cages. Some people also could think that he’s a little on the complainy side and maybe he is but I still got alot of solid food to digest from the guy. What may help me doesn’t always work for everyone else so just take him with a grain of salt. God bless.

  81. Jasmine says:

    Tamara,
    I completely understand what you meant when you said that one of the hardest things to do is speak the Truth in Love. I have a very difficult time with doing this myself because I love them so much that I do confront them (my friends, family, church leaders, even people I have just met) by challenging their thinking and sometimes harshly criticizing their behaviour. I am completely honest with them even if it hurts them and I speak to them with the authority that Jesus has given me through the Holy Spirit, but I need to do it with gentleness and humility. I am continually regretting the way I say things and then apologizing for it. God always puts someone who is a little bit holier than ourselves in our lives to help us to grow in Him. We all need prayer partners, mentors and people who will hold us accountable for our behaviour because they care about us and want to see us grow closer to God. And you are absolutely right that we ourselves cannot convict anyone of their sins, only the Holy Spirit has the power to do that. This is all spiritual work and is done in the spiritual realm. And it is the same for saving souls; we as humans cannot save souls, only the Holy Spirit has the power to do that but we are His vessels and He accomplishes His work through us. We just need to be willing to let Him have His way with us unhindered by our own nature. Our duty as Christians is to live a prayerful life, devote our time to ministry of His Word and minister to others as servants of Christ. In spiritual warfare, no human weapon can defeat the principalities and powers of darkness. Preach the gospel, proclaim Scripture; it is only God’s Truth that can pull down the strongholds of deception and lies. This power is supernatural and comes from God, not us.

  82. Steve says:

    Maybe my letter to the atheist reminds people of hellfire and brimstone preachers. I know they can be pretty annoying the way they condemn and scream at people. So just picture my voice in a soft loving gentle tone that cares about the person I’m speaking to.

  83. Tamara says:

    Steve, I think it’s apparent that you are a very tender-hearted person, and that you care very deeply for people. That comes through pretty clearly in everything you’ve written.

    For me personally, I was not won to Christ by fear of a hell waiting for me, or by being told how bad I was as a person. Life was already those things for me. These can be very hurtful concepts for people who have not first tasted the love of God. It can feel very abusive, disrespectful, selfish… the exact opposite of love. Love… I feel like that word has been so overused and misused, it hardly carries any meaning any more. Some of us come to God very soul wounded… like a dog that’s been beaten. Flinching. I needed God to be truthful, patient, tender, kind, trusting… 1 Cor. 13… a lover for my soul… and that is exactly where God met me. But that’s not everybody, and maybe somebody else needs to hear it a different way. We get very attached to our own conversion stories, don’t we? So, I’m sorry if I personally made you feel criticized for saying what you felt necessary to say. As much as we need to learn to trust God, we also need to trust the Holy Spirit at work through each other… just another little thing I’m working on. God bless.

  84. Steve says:

    I know exactly what you are talking about Tamara. I came to God knowing I was not good enough for Him. When I heard people talking only about hell (before I was a Christian)it actually made me want to get as far away from God as possible. I hated the whole idea of hell. I would never talk about hell after my conversion. I focused only on the love of God. I later realised that alot of people see Christianity as useless partly due to the fact that they allready have a family that they love and things are going great for them. There’s no need for them to accept Christ, unless there’s something at stake. Something so important it might scare the living daylights out of them.
    You see I had grown up thinking I was going to hell all my life. I never got the love part clicked in my brain. I needed God’s love shown to me not another hell scourging. Some people on the other hand think they have nothing to fear and I believe they do need to hear about hell and then the part about God’s love so they can see they have a way out of it. I am sooooo glad that God saved me from that place. It’s what keeps me in line. That and God’s love both.

  85. Shannon says:

    The biggest commandment of all is “to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself” not “love your neighbour except if he is gay.” I doubt anyone who believes being gay is a choice has ever really known a gay person. Unfortunately what we don’t know or understand we tend to fear or hate. And judge. Let’s not forget that love and grace is what this whole walk is about. It must break God’s heart to see the things his children choose to argue about. Loving each other isn’t about being politically correct – it’s what God originally designed us for! Don’t you think that when we fall into these sorts of debate we’re simply being devoured by satan instead of following the loving example of Jesus?

  86. Anon says:

    I’ve just been reading through here and wanted to say that I am a member of the Former church that Ms. Boschman went to, and there is quite a bit of the story she has not shared. and quite a bit that is not truth. I’m not going to argue on here, or get into a big fight, but I do want to voice concern that people might be believing these things without knowing the entire story.

  87. Mary says:

    I will pray for all of you who struggle with such hate in your hearts.

  88. jennifer says:

    I came on here looking for a church to atttend that beleives in the supernatural of God,that lay hands on people and are filled with the holy ghost~your msg it is God does not like same sex marriage but God does not judge them after all if he did they would not be able to be saved but that is why he will meet everyone where they are at. As for human traditions DROP THEM! and repent God will deal more with the religous people more than the sinners,quote-religous people persecute the christians,i don’t agree with being a beleiver you should be called religous but spiritual.

  89. jennifer says:

    supernatural~www.sidroth.org~click on (television it’s supernatural)then on left hand side click on (archives and past shows)Enjoy!

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